From astroweb-request Thu Dec 1 08:41:07 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA14701; Thu, 1 Dec 94 08:41:07 EST Return-Path: Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 08:38:00 -0500 From: ghk@ceres.usno.navy.mil (George H. Kaplan) Message-Id: <9412011338.AA08726@ceres.usno.navy.mil> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Subject: Request for WWW link Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU 1 Dec 1994 I wonder if you would be so kind as to add WWW hypertext links in some appropriate place in NRAO's WWW directories to the following two WWW home pages: U. S. Naval Observatory: http://www.usno.navy.mil/home.html Washington Area Astronomers Meetings: http://www.usno.navy.mil/waa.html Thanks! George Kaplan U. S. Naval Observatory ghk@ceres.usno.navy.mil From www_server Thu Dec 1 16:35:22 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA16542; Thu, 1 Dec 94 16:35:22 EST Return-Path: Date: Thu, 1 Dec 94 16:35:18 EST From: www_server@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU (httpd@fits.cv.nrao.edu) Message-Id: <9412012135.AA16533@fits.cv.nrao.edu> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU, keel@bildad.astr.ua.edu Subject: U of Alabama update/extension from home page Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Message entered by: William Keel @ bildad.astr.ua.edu [130.160.100.19] Our home page is now http://crux.astr.ua.edu/AstroHome.html (the old address will work too, a link exists). We have added about 50 original GIF files of Messier object and pretty galaxies (so maybe we get an entry under pretty pictures too), along with lab exercises and a growing collection of occasionally useful data files (radio-galaxy redshifts, IRAS-selected AGN). From astroweb-request Fri Dec 2 06:10:44 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA19039; Fri, 2 Dec 94 06:10:44 EST Return-Path: Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 12:10:06 +0100 From: josterb@astro.uni-bonn.de (Juergen Osterberg) Message-Id: <9412021110.AA02342@aibn58.astro.uni-bonn.de> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Subject: resource record and personal anchor records Reply-To: josterberg@astro.uni-bonn.de X-Mailer: GNU Emacs 19.19.2 Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU dear Bob, as I couldnt reach neither aref.html nor paref.html, I will enclose the two contributions I have via this email: The first is the home-page of the Astronomical Departments of the University of Bonn: Title: Astro Uni Bonn homepage URL: http://aibn55.astro.uni-bonn.de:8000/ Contents: This page describes the research done at the Bonn University Astronomy departments (Magellanic Cloud research, Radio galaxies, ROSAT studies etc.) In addition, I would like to contribute my personal home page: Title: Jürgen Osterberg's home page URL: http://aibn55.astro.uni-bonn.de:8000/~josterb/ Thanks in advance for adding these to the Astro Web. cheers Juergen From astroweb-request Sat Dec 3 04:48:27 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA21870; Sat, 3 Dec 94 04:48:27 EST Return-Path: Date: Sat, 3 Dec 94 20:48:07 EST From: anton@mso.anu.edu.au (anton koekemoer) Message-Id: <9412030948.AA08580@merlin.anu.edu.au> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Subject: Re: Mirror copy at Vilspa Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU > Could Villafranca maintain a mirror copy of the AstroWeb Database? a great idea; fine by me too. Also, Re: harvest broker, i've finally had a bit more of a chance to play with it - it does have a lot of potential alhtough I'm still puzzled by some of the results. For example, I tried searching for 'preprint' with and without the 'Keyword match on word boundaries' option. With this switched on (default) it gives 34 results. Switching it off would have produced more, I naively thought (ie it looks for the substring preprint and not the exact word?...) - but no, it only found 29. Some of the ones it missed with this option turned off only have preprint as a category in our database and not in the document text itself. But then why does it find them using the first option?.. However, all in all I like it and think that it would be of considerable use, particularly in terms of keeping track of new resources added to pages we already know about (eg institutions adding preprint lists to their homepages) - and this will probably be reasonably common for quite a while yet since many of the homepages are still under development. It would also be interesting to look at the results of a two-level search (or three-level - depending on how many gigabytes are available..). cheers, - anton. From dwells Sat Dec 3 08:44:32 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA23389; Sat, 3 Dec 94 08:44:32 EST Return-Path: Date: Sat, 3 Dec 94 08:44:28 EST From: dwells@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU (Don Wells) Message-Id: <9412031344.AA23380@fits.cv.nrao.edu> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Cc: Jose Daniel Ponz VILSPA/VCS Subject: Re: Mirror copy at Vilspa In-Reply-To: <9412030948.AA08580@merlin.anu.edu.au> References: <9412030948.AA08580@merlin.anu.edu.au> Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Dear AstroWeb colleagues (and Daniel), anton koekemoer writes: > > Could Villafranca maintain a mirror copy of the AstroWeb Database? > > a great idea; fine by me too. OK, I will add my name to the apparent consensus. But there are some things that I want to say about it. 1. The bandwidth limitations which currently justify regional AstroWeb centers are short-term problems which are steadily disappearing. Loading on servers has never been a problem (none of us are CERN or NCSA!). The really important long-term justification for multiple copies of AstroWeb is the visibility which our respective institutions have in distinctly different astronomical clienteles. As I see it, VILSPA's role in IUE (ultraviolet astronomy) and in ESA operations is the real long-term justification for putting a server there. 2. All servers which carry the "AstroWeb" name should be updated from the master database regularly, preferably every day. It is my understanding that CDS intends to assist VILSPA in installing an update daemon. 3. If this proposal (for another AstroWeb server) is agreed to, then it seems to me that Daniel's address should be added to the "astroweb" Email exploder list. If he is on the mailing list, why shouldn't he get a password at the master database? If he has a server with the "AstroWeb" name, is on the mailing list and has a password to the master database, then he will be -- effectively -- a member of the Consortium. Therefore, I suggest that we, and Daniel, address the question of whether we and he want Ponz/VILSPA to join the Consortium fully, including accepting the responsibility of helping to maintain the database. My "yes" vote should be understood as endorsing full membership (and responsibility) for Daniel/VILSPA. If we, and Daniel, agree that he should become a full AstroWeb member, and we announce that fact on the networks, it is likely to trigger other requests to join the Consortium. I think that that will be a good thing, but we should all be aware of the probable consequences of our actions. There is no advantage to simply adding more names to the membership list; instead, we should try to accept new members who add new visibility for new astronomical clienteles and who add new expertise to our database maintenance. In particular, solar, planetary and high-energy astronomy are under-represented in the Consortium, and probably we will need to add an astronomical library specialist at some point. What we really need are more people who are willing and able to help in the database maintenance. It appears to me that we have no human or technical limitations on our ability to scale up the Consortium by as much as a factor of two. -Don From astroweb-request Sun Dec 4 04:40:13 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA24096; Sun, 4 Dec 94 04:40:13 EST Return-Path: Message-Id: <9412040943.AA16468@cdsxb6.u-strasbg.fr> To: astroweb@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Cc: heck@cdsxb6.u-strasbg.fr Subject: Ponz/Vilspa request vrs Don's message Date: Sun, 04 Dec 94 10:43:21 +0100 From: Andre HECK Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU It happened that I talked to D.J. Ponz on the phone some time ago for other reasons. In the course of the conversation, he mentioned he had sent an e-mail to Don about AstroWeb and was puzzled because he had received no answer. I suggested then he sent a message to the astroweb account with his proposal in order to generate a discussion among us and that we would go back to him. This is a bit of history and we are now right in the middle of this discussion. What I understood from this brief conversation with DJP (I suggest we use this acronym since we have now two Daniel involved with AstroWeb), is that he did not necessarily wanted to be a full member of the consortium (although I guess he would have nothing against it - his employer might think differently, but this is his business to sort this out). I appreciate fully the succession of steps in Don's thinking. Although I am not sure we have to go so far in DJP's case, it is clear that once the precedent will be created, we'll have no reason to deny access to people in similar or related situations (remember the discussion we had at the very beginning about this gentleman from Muenster?). I invite then everyone to reassess their position in view of Don's comments. A way out might be to have two categories of links to AstroWeb: full members and associated ones. My understanding from the conversation with DJP earlier on and the various positions expressed is that this `associate' status would stop after the first sentence of Point 3 in Don's sequence (i.e. on the exploder, but not beyond). We might also have a two-step exploder: one for full members only and another one for full members + associates. AH. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From astroweb-request Sun Dec 4 04:45:08 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA24113; Sun, 4 Dec 94 04:45:08 EST Return-Path: X-Sender: hmadorf@ns3.hq.eso.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 10:48:09 +0100 To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU From: adorf@eso.org (Hans-Martin Adorf) Subject: Re: Mirror copy at Vilspa Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU >probably we will need to add an astronomical library specialist I recently spoke to Uta Michold (ESO librarian) and she seemed to be interested. May be a second (written) approach is necessaty to get her into the boat. Hans-Martin From astroweb-request Sun Dec 4 09:34:20 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA27917; Sun, 4 Dec 94 09:34:20 EST Return-Path: From: fmurtagh@eso.org Date: Sun, 4 Dec 94 15:33:58 +0100 Message-Id: <9412041433.AA20356@st2.hq.eso.org> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Subject: Re: Re: Mirror copy at Vilspa Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU > >probably we will need to add an astronomical library specialist > > I recently spoke to Uta Michold (ESO librarian) and she seemed to be > interested. May be a second (written) approach is necessaty to get her into > the boat. > > Hans-Martin If Uta wants this, then this represents a nice opportunity to be availed of, given the redefinition of the librarian's role. If this meets general agreement, then we here can liaise closely with her in the short-term. Fionn From astroweb-request Mon Dec 5 14:48:31 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA01364; Mon, 5 Dec 94 14:48:31 EST Return-Path: Date: Mon, 5 Dec 94 14:48:24 EST From: Bob Jackson Message-Id: <9412051948.AA05724@MARIAN.STSCI.EDU> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Subject: additional members Reply-To: jackson@stsci.edu Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU There are two major types of functions: 1. Updating the AstroWeb database 2. Mirroring the contents of the AstroWeb database. These are separate and distinct functions. I see no problem with adding more people to 2, as long as they verify that their version is up to date. All we have to do is create a page listing the mirrored copies. There are two ways to do 1, by the "Edit Entire Database" form or by Don's forms. Access to the former functionality should be limited, while access to the latter functionality should continue to be global, but mediated by human inspection. We do need more domain experts, but access to "Edit Entire Database" should be restricted to those who will make a 'major' contribution. From dwells Mon Dec 5 15:06:57 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA01433; Mon, 5 Dec 94 15:06:57 EST Return-Path: Date: Mon, 5 Dec 94 15:06:52 EST From: dwells@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU (Don Wells) Message-Id: <9412052006.AA01424@fits.cv.nrao.edu> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Subject: Re: additional members In-Reply-To: <9412051948.AA05724@MARIAN.STSCI.EDU> References: <9412051948.AA05724@MARIAN.STSCI.EDU> Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Bob Jackson writes: > There are two major types of functions: > > 1. Updating the AstroWeb database > 2. Mirroring the contents of the AstroWeb database. > > These are separate and distinct functions. > > I see no problem with adding more people to 2, > as long as they verify that their version is up > to date. All we have to do is create a page listing > the mirrored copies. > > There are two ways to do 1, by the "Edit Entire Database" > form or by Don's forms. Access to the former functionality > should be limited, while access to the latter functionality > should continue to be global, but mediated by human inspection. > > We do need more domain experts, but access to "Edit Entire Database" > should be restricted to those who will make a 'major' contribution. OK, I will agree to these statements. Probably the Consortium has reached consensus. I have added Daniel Ponz to file://fits.cv.nrao.edu/fits/www/astroweb/astroweb.dis Therefore, he will see this followup (which includes Bob's followup). Welcome to the club, Daniel! -Don PS: I didn't immediately reply to your original message to me because I couldn't decide what to say, and then I forgot about it because I was concentrating on a major subsystem for the Green Bank Telescope. From astroweb-request Mon Dec 5 16:26:05 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA01690; Mon, 5 Dec 94 16:26:05 EST Return-Path: X-Sender: hmadorf@ns3.hq.eso.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 22:29:07 +0100 To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU From: adorf@eso.org (Hans-Martin Adorf) Subject: Re: additional members Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Dear friends, >We do need more domain experts, but access to "Edit Entire Database" >should be restricted to those who will make a 'major' contribution. Why don't we play it by ear? Anyone could beecome a full member if he/she regularly contributes in some sense or other, either by contributing new URLs, or by pointing out errors or improvements, or by helping to publicise AstroWeb, or ... We could have a staged approach, first let someone have a mirror copy and when he/she substantially contributes to AstroWeb, then he/she may be upgraded to business class. Cheers Hans-Martin From astroweb-request Wed Dec 7 06:18:26 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA07280; Wed, 7 Dec 94 06:18:26 EST Return-Path: Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 12:19:50 +0200 (CET) From: Jose Daniel Ponz VILSPA/VCS To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Cc: JDP@vilspa.esa.es Message-Id: <941207121950.16a87@vilspa.esa.es> Subject: Re: Mirror copy at Vilspa Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Dear colleagues, First, thanks for taking my request into account. My idea, after discussing it with Hans-Martin Adorf and Andre Heck, was to have a mirror copy of the AstroWeb database at Villafranca. This is rather critical, due to the current demands with the IUE project and because the scientific staff at Villafranca will be increased in the near future, due to the ISO project. Second, as pointed out by Bob Jackson, there are three major functions in the AstroWeb coordination, below I indicate my view on each one: 1. Mirroring the contents of the AstroWeb database: this was my request, and AstroWeb should be prepared for including more (major) centers to this list. Current status: I have been contacted by Daniel Egret so as to prepare our environment for this purpose. 2. Participating in the AstroWeb discussions (via the e-mail exploder list): I was not aware of this list and, in principle, other people will be interested in participating. In my view, it should be as open as possible. 3. Updating the AstroWeb database: My understanding is that there are three mechanisms to update the database, - after discussion within the AstroWeb Email exploder, - by using Don's forms, and - by the "Edit Entire Database". While the two first mechanisms are in principle open, the third one should be restricted to _one_ person, i.e., update proposals are openly discussed but the actual update and database _quality_control_ is the responsibility of a single person. Well, this is my view on this topic; therefore, being allowed to "Edit the Entire Database" is not a requirement for me (at least at the moment). Third, I have a question on the relationship between AstroWeb and the Astronomy page in the Virtual Library maintained at CERN. The new layout includes a link to the AstroWeb, but, are you planning to have a more unified access? (namely, by merging the two databases). If you have additional information (i.e., not avalable in the Web), on the rules and/or mechanisms followed by the consortium, please, send me a copy. Best regards, Daniel Ponz ESA/Villafranca e-mail: jdp@vilspa.esa.es P.O. Box 50727, 28080 Madrid Phone: 34-1-8131183 From astroweb-request Wed Dec 7 07:38:07 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA07349; Wed, 7 Dec 94 07:38:07 EST Return-Path: X-Sender: hmadorf@ns3.hq.eso.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 13:41:12 +0100 To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU From: adorf@eso.org (Hans-Martin Adorf) Subject: Re: Mirror copy at Vilspa Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Daniel, >Third, I have a question on the relationship between AstroWeb and the >Astronomy page in the Virtual Library maintained at CERN. The new layout >includes a link to the AstroWeb, but, are you planning to have a more unified >access? (namely, by merging the two databases). I vaguely remember that I have once been contacted by someone asking whether I would consider to become responsible for maintaining the astronomy page in the virtual library. I don't think that I followed that msg up in a serious manner. Hans-Martin From astroweb-request Thu Dec 8 08:45:48 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA10144; Thu, 8 Dec 94 08:45:48 EST Return-Path: Message-Id: <9412081348.AA01253@SIMBAD.u-strasbg.fr> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Subject: Re: Mirror copy at Vilspa In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 7 Dec 1994 13:41:12 +0100 . Date: Thu, 08 Dec 94 14:48:47 +0100 From: egret@SIMBAD.u-strasbg.fr X-Mts: smtp Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU >Third, I have a question on the relationship between AstroWeb and the >Astronomy page in the Virtual Library maintained at CERN. The new layout >includes a link to the AstroWeb, but, are you planning to have a more unified >access? (namely, by merging the two databases). This CERN page is outrageously outdated : it was suggested earlier to the manager of this page to simply refer to AstroWeb and he more or less agreed but six months later the page is still there... Maybe one of us should kindly suggest him he could at least give a bette visibility to AstroWeb in his page. Daniel Egret -------------- From Don (3 Mar 94) > The question of whether some single unique URL should be designated as > the initial point of contact for astronomy remains open. In > particular, in the existing global indexes maintained by CERN and GNN, > and several others, STScI is currently taking that role. The > maintainer of a global astronomy list at CERN actually told Bob that > Bob's list was better than his, and so he would make CERN point to STScI. From astroweb-request Thu Dec 8 09:22:39 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA10217; Thu, 8 Dec 94 09:22:39 EST Return-Path: Date: Thu, 8 Dec 94 09:22:33 EST From: Bob Jackson Message-Id: <9412081422.AA20114@MARIAN.STSCI.EDU> To: spaoli@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar Subject: World-Wide Web Virtual Library: Astronomy and Astrophysics Reply-To: jackson@stsci.edu Cc: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU I would like to consider placing the AstroWeb at the top level of your page titled: World-Wide Web Virtual Library: Astronomy and Astrophysics located at: http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/DataSources/bySubject/astro/astro.html AstroWeb is substantially more complete than your index. It also provides valued added categorization, aliveness validation, and content indexing and searching that the other Astronomy services don't provide. Bob From dwells Thu Dec 8 10:43:29 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA10666; Thu, 8 Dec 94 10:43:29 EST Return-Path: Date: Thu, 8 Dec 94 10:43:25 EST From: dwells@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU (Don Wells) Message-Id: <9412081543.AA10657@fits.cv.nrao.edu> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Subject: Re: World-Wide Web Virtual Library: Astronomy and Astrophysics In-Reply-To: <9412081422.AA20114@MARIAN.STSCI.EDU> References: <9412081422.AA20114@MARIAN.STSCI.EDU> Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Dear AstroWeb friends, I looked at the URL at CERN which Bob gave in his message. Sergio Paoli's CERN pages definitely have URLs and features that we don't have. He has demonstrated that he is also an independent collector of URLs, and that he can classify and organize the data at our level. Perhaps we (AstroWeb Consortium) should invite him to be a full member of AstroWeb, and to incorporate his records into the AstroWeb database and make the CERN pages be a daily-updated version of AstroWeb. -Don From astroweb-request Thu Dec 8 10:45:13 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA10691; Thu, 8 Dec 94 10:45:13 EST Return-Path: Date: Thu, 8 Dec 94 10:45:05 EST From: Bob Jackson Message-Id: <9412081545.AA20384@MARIAN.STSCI.EDU> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Subject: [spaoli@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar: Re: World-Wide Web Virtual Library: Astronomy and Astrophysics] Reply-To: jackson@stsci.edu Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU From: (Sergio Paoli) Subject: Re: World-Wide Web Virtual Library: Astronomy and Astrophysics To: jackson@stsci.edu Date: Thu, 8 Dec 94 11:32:06 SAT In-Reply-To: <9412081422.AA20114@MARIAN.STSCI.EDU>; from "Bob Jackson" at Dec 8, 94 9:22 am > > I would like to consider placing the AstroWeb at the > top level of your page titled: > > World-Wide Web Virtual Library: Astronomy and Astrophysics > > located at: > > http://info.cern.ch/hypertext/DataSources/bySubject/astro/astro.html > Hi Bob, Thanks for your comment... But the AstroWeb is now in Other Lists, Virtual Libraries and Search Engines... > AstroWeb is substantially more complete than your index. > > It also provides valued added categorization, aliveness validation, > and content indexing and searching that the other Astronomy > services don't provide. > Is possible, but how many people work in the AstroWeb ???????? Im the only maintainer for my pages... Cheers, Sergio ;-) -- +-----------------------------------------+------------------------------+ : Sergio A. Paoli : Paseo del Bosque s/n : : Department of Spectroscopy : (1900) La Plata : : Astronomical Observatory : Argentina : +-----------------------------------------+------------------------------+ : Phones +54 21 21-7308 : : +54 21 3-8810 : : Fax +54 21 21-1761 : : e-mail: spaoli@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar : : WWW: http://www.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar/spaoli/sergio-home.html : +-----------------------------------------+------------------------------+ From astroweb-request Thu Dec 8 10:46:07 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA10698; Thu, 8 Dec 94 10:46:07 EST Return-Path: Date: Thu, 8 Dec 94 10:46:01 EST From: Bob Jackson Message-Id: <9412081546.AA20397@MARIAN.STSCI.EDU> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Subject: Perhaps I erred in this message... Reply-To: jackson@stsci.edu Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Date: Thu, 8 Dec 94 10:44:34 EST From: Bob Jackson To: spaoli@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar In-Reply-To: <9412081432.AA02377@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar> (spaoli@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar) Subject: Re: World-Wide Web Virtual Library: Astronomy and Astrophysics My rationale for putting it at the top level is to make the best service most readily available. By virtue of its location the CERN World-Wide Web Virtual Library is a primary reference. In the area of Astronomy and Astrophysics, AstroWeb is the primary reference. Burying a more complete listing down in your tree is a disservice to your users. In my humble opinion, of course. Bob From astroweb-request Fri Dec 9 07:33:52 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA13645; Fri, 9 Dec 94 07:33:52 EST Return-Path: Date: Fri, 9 Dec 94 07:33:45 EST From: Bob Jackson Message-Id: <9412091233.AA25423@MARIAN.STSCI.EDU> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Subject: [spaoli@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar: ASTROWEB AT THE TOP LEVEL...] Reply-To: jackson@stsci.edu Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU From: (Sergio Paoli) Subject: ASTROWEB AT THE TOP LEVEL... To: jackson@stsci.edu Date: Thu, 8 Dec 94 23:07:15 SAT In-Reply-To: <9412081544.AA20371@MARIAN.STSCI.EDU>; from "Bob Jackson" at Dec 8, 94 10:44 am > > My rationale for putting it at the top level is to > make the best service most readily available. > > By virtue of its location the CERN World-Wide Web Virtual Library > is a primary reference. > > In the area of Astronomy and Astrophysics, AstroWeb is the primary > reference. > > Burying a more complete listing down in your tree is a disservice > to your users. > > In my humble opinion, of course. > > Bob > Hi Bob, Your opinion is absolutely true!!!! Now AstroWeb is at the top level of my page... The pages at CERN are a mirror from the pages in my machine, here, in La Plata, and the update is in the mornings. Check the new location tomorrow, OK??? Cheers, Sergio ;-) -- +-----------------------------------------+------------------------------+ : Sergio A. Paoli : Paseo del Bosque s/n : : Department of Spectroscopy : (1900) La Plata : : Astronomical Observatory : Argentina : +-----------------------------------------+------------------------------+ : Phones +54 21 21-7308 : : +54 21 3-8810 : : Fax +54 21 21-1761 : : e-mail: spaoli@fcaglp.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar : : WWW: http://www.fcaglp.unlp.edu.ar/spaoli/sergio-home.html : +-----------------------------------------+------------------------------+ From astroweb-request Fri Dec 9 08:08:10 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA13693; Fri, 9 Dec 94 08:08:10 EST Return-Path: Date: Sat, 10 Dec 94 00:07:56 EST From: anton@mso.anu.edu.au (anton koekemoer) Message-Id: <9412091307.AA02397@merlin.anu.edu.au> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Subject: Re: World-Wide Web Virtual Library: Astronomy and Astrophysics Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Dear friends, Just thought I'd share some of my thoughts on the CERN astronomy listings, particularly in view of the most recent modifications to these pages. I've been watching the CERN listing over the last few months; he has basically followed the AstroWeb categorization of resources as well as our nomenclature. However, as Don points out, there are a few resources in these CERN lists which are not in AstroWeb. [** but see PS at the end of this email ]. I notice also that he is now working on a form to allow additions to be made to the database. Apparently this is very recent, perhaps initiated by the correspondence with Bob. He has also still retained all his other pages and so any potential user still has to wade through both sets of databases (ie AstroWeb and these CERN lists) before being certain that a particular resource is or is not available. Basically, I would second Don's suggestion of inviting him to become part of AstroWeb since these two databases are now really serving the same function and I would guess are at least 90% redundant. I would like to make the point though that the CERN listing should then not simply point to an AstroWeb page, but actually *become* an AstroWeb page in the same spirit as all of our current pages, and updated from the AstroWeb database, ie without the current redundancy. Whether or not he will become a "full" or "associate" member is something to discuss, presumably with him as well as amongst ourselves. Best regards, - anton. ** PS whether these sites are in fact official seems to me to be a matter of opinion. I have my own list of sites which I have found by random exploration, but which are not publicly advertised anywhere (eg MPIA Heidelberg, Steward Observatory, Tokyo University Astronomy/RadioAstronomy groups etc) and I won't add these to the database until they are announced publicly, eg in NCSA -... or in the CERN listing. Here now I have a question - precisely how are these CERN lists created? I had always thought of the CERN listings as being somehow "official", ie any URL listed in them is officially sanctioned by whichever institution it represents, and had assumed that CERN somehow acts as "the" official clearing-house for URLs, a bit like the NIC's in the US. But if all they do is copy resources from lists such as AstroWeb, assuming implicitly that the sources are "official", then adding new resources becomes something of a catch-22 situation. From astroweb-request Mon Dec 19 12:11:10 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA22489; Mon, 19 Dec 94 12:11:10 EST Return-Path: Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 18:13:02 +0200 (CET) From: Jose Daniel Ponz VILSPA/VCS To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Cc: JDP@vilspa.esa.es Message-Id: <941219181302.1fe69@vilspa.esa.es> Subject: Mirror copy at Villafranca: Status. Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Dear AstroWeb colleages, Thanks again for your help to set up the mirror copy at Villafranca. I have received all the scripts from Daniel Egret (Thanks!) and, today, we have implemented a simple procedure (Phase 1 below), mainly based on the information at NRAO and ST/ScI. Please, visit us and send me your comments. The AstroWeb information is accessible from our Welcome page http://www.vilspa.esa.es/ or can be directly addressed as http://www.vilspa.esa.es/astroweb/astronomy.html I have structured the page 'astronomy.html' in a slightly different form, and added the HTML validation service for testing new pages. If you agree, you could add the URL http://www.vilspa.esa.es/div/help/validation-form.html into the AstroWeb main pages at each center, this is a service that we can offer to the Consortium. In order to continue with the collaboration, I will explain our implementation plan, please, give me your comments. Phase 1 ------- - Simple copy of fits.cv.nrao.edu/www/yp_*.html and lor.stsci.edu/astroweb/newmaster.html using lynx in a procedure defined in the cron table. - The main page (astronomy.html) is not changed. - URLs are periodically checked using MOMspider. Question to Don and Bob: Which is the best time for data transfer? Status: already implemented. Phase 2 ------- - Implement local WAIS index for AstroWeb. This capability is already available for our complete information system. - Implement dead and unreliable URL lists (as seen from Villafranca). Comment: It could be interesting to implement this service at each center. Status: starting soon. Phase 3 ------- - Generate yp_*.html files from the Master Database directly, using a generic Perl procedure with a configuration file defining the categories. The file astronomy.html will also be generated. - Merge of AstroWeb and Virtual library into a single AstroWeb Virtual Library Database (?). I have contacted Sergio Paoli on this subject and he is not against the idea. I will circulate a proposal in a few days. Status: Thinking on it. This is all for the moment. Best regards Daniel From dwells Mon Dec 19 13:38:06 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA22605; Mon, 19 Dec 94 13:38:06 EST Return-Path: Date: Mon, 19 Dec 94 13:38:01 EST From: dwells@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU (Don Wells) Message-Id: <9412191838.AA22595@fits.cv.nrao.edu> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Subject: Re: Mirror copy at Villafranca: Status. In-Reply-To: <941219181302.1fe69@vilspa.esa.es> References: <941219181302.1fe69@vilspa.esa.es> Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Jose Daniel Ponz VILSPA/VCS writes: > The AstroWeb information is accessible from our Welcome page .. > or can be directly addressed as > http://www.vilspa.esa.es/astroweb/astronomy.html GOOD! I have revised http://fits.cv.nrao.edu/www/astroweb.html appropriately. > Question to Don and Bob: Which is the best time for data transfer? My daily daemon script for fits.cv.nrao.edu runs at 05:01 Eastern time every day. In the wintertime, Eastern time differs from UT by 5h. Previously, the AstroWeb update was the last item in the script for the daemon; my AstroWeb page said that it is updated at about 10:45 UT. In fact, yesterday it updated at 11:11 UT. I have just changed my daily daemon to make the AstroWeb update be the first job for the daemon. I have edited my AstroWeb page; now it will say "These NRAO AstroWeb pages are updated at about 10:05 UT each day, if the master database has changed." Note that last phrase -- for example, my pages did *not* change today! My AstroWeb daemon is in file://fits.cv.nrao.edu/www/astroweb/every_day.sh. The MSSSO and ST-ECF installations are using a variation on my code. The code fetches the master database from STScI using Lynx. It decides whether the database has changed. You may find this logic useful. If there has been a change, the daemon recomputes all of the pages. The computation is invoked by the 'make install' command. The Makefile and the AWK programs which it calls are in the same directory. Regarding HTML validation, the new Arena client tool from CERN is quite useful: it checks the syntax against the official SGML DTD and reports errors in its View-Source rendering. I now have three clients (Mosaic, Netscape and Arena) and find that testing pages with all three is a good exercise to assure portability. > - Merge of AstroWeb and Virtual library into a single AstroWeb Virtual > Library Database (?). I have contacted Sergio Paoli on this subject and > he is not against the idea. I will circulate a proposal in a few days. GOOD! Thank you taking this action. Sergio should be invited to join this Consortium. He should compute a version of the AstroWeb database every day to be the Virtual Library page for Astronomy/Astrophysics. -Don From astroweb-request Tue Dec 20 06:02:12 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA25513; Tue, 20 Dec 94 06:02:12 EST Return-Path: Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 12:03:21 +0200 (CET) From: Jose Daniel Ponz VILSPA/VCS To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Cc: JDP@vilspa.esa.es Message-Id: <941220120321.19a26@vilspa.esa.es> Subject: A proposal for merging Astroweb and VL at CERN Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Dear AstroWeb colleages, After the positive comment from Don on the idea of merging AstroWeb and the Astronomy Virtual Library at CERN, here you will find my proposal for merging. Please, send me your comments so that we can reach an agreement, and then, invite Sergio Paoli for further discussions. Take into account that this is only my proposal (as newcomer), based on the idea of sharing efforts, to provide a good service to the A&A community... Proposal for merging AstroWeb and WWW VL-Astron.&Astrophys into ``The AstroWeb Virtual Library'' --------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Generate a common database by merging the URLs in AstroWeb and WWW-VL. The database format should be the one currently used by AstroWeb (with possibly minor additions, new keywords, etc). 2. The complete (merged) AstroWeb database has three instances: - Master database: stored in the AstroWeb Maintenance Center. - Reference database: generated daily from the master database, and stored at CERN. - Mirror databases: downloaded daily by all the centers participating in the AstroWeb consortium (AstroWeb/Level 2 members) from the Reference database at CERN. 3. Access to database URLs is done using two levels of pages, very much along the structure of the yp_*.html pages at NRAO. These access pages are generated (daily) at the AstroWeb centers (Level 2 Members), from the Mirror databases, using a set of procedures to be developed (recommendation to use Perl for portability). Common look and feel should be defined for the main AstroWeb-VL page (it is not the case now). 4. The master database is updated at the Maintenance Center based on the information given in the requests forms, e-mails or discussions within the AstroWeb e-mail list. These updates are manually entered into the database. 5. The Maintenance Center updates the Master Database and generates the Reference Database at CERN. Maintenence Centers are selected for a period of 2 (?) months among the AstroWeb Level 1 members (bussiness class in H.-M.'s e-mail, a few days ago ;-). 6. At the end of the 2 (?) months period, the maintenance duty is assigned to a new Maintenance Center. At that moment, the new database administrator downloads from CERN the Reference Database becoming the new Master Database. 7. E-mail discussions and updates (database quality control) are posted in the AstroWeb e-mail exploder. The exploder is implemented at, and controlled by NRAO. E-mail is distributed among AstroWeb Level 1 members. 8. Update proposals are done via (HTML-) forms, mantained at ST/ScI. 9. AstroWeb Level 2 membership completely open to centers requesting it. These centers will generate mirror copies from the Reference Database. (In fact, if you are running a modern WWW proxy server you will not even need to generate explicitly the AstroWeb files, the information could be stored in the cache, updated when required). 10.Requirements for AstroWeb Level 2 members have to be defined. 11.AstroWeb Level 1 members are: current AstroWeb members + Sergio Paoli. They will receive (develop) a (simple) maintenance SW kit. 12.If the proposal is accepted, I submit a full Level1 membership request ;-) FUNCTIONAL SUMMARY ------------------ Tentative definition of functions assigned to each center. The procedure to merge both databases is not included. Functions assigned to AstroWeb/Level 1 ------------------------------------- NRAO AstroWeb Exploder NRAO Update/correction forms, incoming records ST/ScI Unreliable/dead URL's global list CERN Reference database Functions supported by all AstroWeb/Level 1 ------------------------------------------- - Download Reference database and generate yp*.html files. - Shared database maintenance, for a period of 2 months, in rotation. - Generation of local WAIS indices. - Check unreliable/dead URL's (as seen from that site). Functions supported by the Maintenance Center on duty ----------------------------------------------------- - Update Master database and transfer it to CERN as Reference database - Generate yp_*.html files - Check syntax, entries and keywords in generated html files ADVANTAGES: ----------- 1. Unified (optimal) access to astronomical resources. 2. Simplification of the procedure for announcing new resources. Currently one has to submit (at least) two update requests in the Astro&Astrophys. context. 3. Maintenance workload is shared. ---------------------------------------------------end of proposal This is all for the moment. Best regards, Daniel --------------------------------------------------------------------------- J.D.Ponz e-mail: jdp@vilspa.esa.es ESA/Villafranca, P.O.Box 50727, 28080 Madrid, Spain. Phone: 34-1-8131183 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From astroweb-request Tue Dec 20 10:57:42 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA25918; Tue, 20 Dec 94 10:57:42 EST Return-Path: Date: Tue, 20 Dec 94 10:57:34 EST From: Bob Jackson Message-Id: <9412201557.AA14331@MARIAN.STSCI.EDU> To: JDP@vilspa.esa.es In-Reply-To: <941220120321.19a26@vilspa.esa.es> (message from Jose Daniel Ponz VILSPA/VCS on Tue, 20 Dec 1994 12:03:21 +0200 (CET)) Subject: Re: A proposal for merging Astroweb and VL at CERN Reply-To: jackson@stsci.edu Cc: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU There many valuable suggestions in your proposal, but I should clarify how the "Maintenance Center" currently works. AstroWeb members modify the Master Database at STScI via the HTML forms at STScI. (Don may have semi-automated the input to the STScI forms from the NRAO forms.) The Master Database at STScI uses CVS to provide prior version recovery and to allow SIMULTANEOUS editing WITHOUT LOCKING. This use of CVS would make rotating the "Maintenance Center" a little difficult, but not impossible. Whenever a change is made to the Master Database, new versions of http://lor.stsci.edu/astroweb/newmaster.tcl http://lor.stsci.edu/astroweb/newmaster.html are generated. This allows the Master Database to be remotely edited, and does not impose any serious burden on the site containing the Master Database. If you want to see how the remote editing feature works, email me a username password domain and I will give you the permissions to use the remote editing tools. e.g., ponz ??? vilspa.esa.es The software checks that the user's client is running on a machine within the domain. My domain is set to the machine on which I run Mosaic. Bob From dwells Tue Dec 20 11:21:28 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA25994; Tue, 20 Dec 94 11:21:28 EST Return-Path: Date: Tue, 20 Dec 94 11:21:22 EST From: dwells@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU (Don Wells) Message-Id: <9412201621.AA25983@fits.cv.nrao.edu> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Subject: Re: A proposal for merging Astroweb and VL at CERN In-Reply-To: <9412201557.AA14331@MARIAN.STSCI.EDU> References: <941220120321.19a26@vilspa.esa.es> <9412201557.AA14331@MARIAN.STSCI.EDU> Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Bob Jackson writes: > .. Don may have semi-automated > the input.. from the NRAO forms.. Sigh.... not yet! I have been busy with GBT matters for the past three months. I do still intend to do this enhancement for AstroWeb. The strategy that I intend to try is that the output of the NRAO forms will be an ADD command to the master database. I.e., it will have username/password fields which one of us will have to fill out in order to authorize an ADD transaction on the master database. I wish that the DELETE command on the master database would return an ADD form. If it did, one could DELETE a record and then edit it in the window and then do an ADD, which would be effectively a MODIFY operation. -*- No elaborate new procedures or technology are needed for the CERN pages. Sergio Paoli already computes the CERN pages from a master file at La Plata. All he needs to do is to fetch the master AstroWeb file from STScI (or NRAO or..) and compute his pages in whatever style he considers appropriate. He should add a reference to the AstroWeb Consortium on his top-level page, and should probably have either a link or a field for a search utility. His style can be the same as what he already has, or he could modify it. He could (and probably should) continue as the person officially responsible for the CERN pages. He would gain the advantage that (1) he would have more links in his pages (because the AstroWeb database is larger than his) and (2) he would have all of us helping him to maintain the database. We would gain (1) by adding some records that we don't have and (2) by adding an AstroWeb site at a well-known and prestigious location. Everybody wins, so we really should be able to agree on this concept. Regarding categories, Sergio has a list of 'mailing lists' (exploders). I have long wanted to add this to AstroWeb, but dreaded having to do the work; Sergio has a good starting set of records. -Don From astroweb-request Wed Dec 21 10:31:56 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA29647; Wed, 21 Dec 94 10:31:56 EST Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 16:33:33 +0200 (CET) From: Jose Daniel Ponz VILSPA/VCS To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Message-Id: <941221163333.2203d@vilspa.esa.es> Subject: Re: A proposal for merging Astroweb and VL at CERN Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Don Wells writes: > ..Everybody wins, so we really should be able to agree on this concept.. OK. My proposal gives CERN a more relevant role in the game, but this is not its main goal. I would like to have also the opinion of other people in the group about the proposal, and then invite Sergio for discussions on a common setup. Maybe you Don are the right person to 'officially' contact Sergio? Daniel From astroweb-request Wed Dec 21 11:37:35 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA29789; Wed, 21 Dec 94 11:37:35 EST Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 94 11:37:25 EST From: Bob Jackson Message-Id: <9412211637.AA20770@MARIAN.STSCI.EDU> To: JDP@vilspa.esa.es In-Reply-To: <941221171113.2203d@vilspa.esa.es> (message from Jose Daniel Ponz VILSPA/VCS on Wed, 21 Dec 1994 17:11:13 +0200 (CET)) Subject: Re: A proposal for merging Astroweb and VL at CERN Reply-To: jackson@stsci.edu Cc: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU 1. What is CVS ? CVS = Concurrent Version System It is a source code management system like CMS (VAX/VMS) or SCCS or RCS (Unix), which does not require files to be locked before they can be edited and it merges changes from multiple people. I could have used a real database, but CVS seemed simpler and provided prior version recovery, change tracking, etc. 2. Why do you edit the master database with CVS rather than editing directly the newmaster.html (eventually with a standard html authoring tool) and generating newmaster.tcl out of it? I changed from the .html representation to the .tcl representation since my CGI scripts which handle the distributed editing are also written in Tcl so newmaster.tcl avoids the need to parse a .html file. My scripts which process the database are also written in Tcl. The real database is newmaster.tcl and it is stored in CVS. newmaster.tcl consists of Tcl commands. newmaster.html is generated from newmaster.tcl I view HTML as an output format. I chose TCL as a more suitable data storage format. ********************************************** w.r.t. "using a set of procedures to be developed (recommend to use Perl for portability)." I would instead recommend Tcl which is equally portable, is a higher level language, has a simpler and more regular syntax, has a more mature object oriented extension, and can be used to build GUI's, and ... Compare the syntax: tcl: proc fact x { if [expr $x < 2] { return 1 } else { return [expr $x * [fact [expr $x - 1]]] } } perl: (v5; v4 has a bug needing a param copy into local variable) sub fact { if ($_[0] < 1) { return 1; } else { return $_[0] * fact($_[0] - 1); } } You could also have written the perl version more as sub fact { ($_[0] < 1) ? 1 : $_[0] * fact($_[0]-1); } For a more complete rant: From: tchrist@cs.colorado.edu (Tom Christiansen) Newsgroups: comp.lang.perl Subject: Perl Peeves Message-ID: <1993Nov19.134521.26256@convex.com> Date: 19 Nov 93 13:45:21 GMT Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder A few days ago, someone asked what things people disliked about Perl, and no one answered. Well, I've worked, played, and fought with Perl quite enough to have by list of personal pet perl peeves. Some are inherent to the language and beyond redemption, others could in theory be fixed, and others already have been. In fact, I've omitted some minor ones that are fixed in Perl5. Yes, this will become a FAQ; note the long expiration date. All but the last question/issue are new. 1. Scalar vs Array 2. Strings and Numbers 3. Barewords 4. Unary-Op vs List-ops 5. Filehandles not real objects 6. Filehandles need funny vars for ops 7. Sometimes need scalar, other times tolerate expr 8. Remembering Defaults 9. Do {} isn't a controllable loop 10. Variable suicide 1. Scalar vs Array The absolutely toughest thing for me to teach people is the scalar versus array context stuff. I mean, I can get them to get this $count = @list; @nlist = @olist; But the hidden things mystify them. In some languages, the world acts differently if you call them with the wrong type. Perl is largely typeless, but calling things in the wrong *context* is what really confuses you. No one can grasp this quickly. For example, these are all different: $x = /pat/; ($x) = /pat/; $x = /(pat)/; ($x) = /(pat)/; $x = $var =~ /pat/; ($x) = $var =~ /pat/; $x = $var =~ /(pat)/; ($x) = $var =~ /(pat)/; Or what difference is between all these: $x = @x; $x = %x; @x = %x; @x = $x; %x = @x; %x = $x; $x = `cat`; @x = `cat`; %x = `cat`; ($x) = `cat`; $x[3] = `cat`; @x[3] = `cat`; I just can't stop people from using @x[3] to mean $x[3]. Perl 5's -w switch should help that. Or what all this has to be done to reverse lines and characters: print reverse `cat`; print scalar reverse scalar `cat`; Because it's not the argument types that make these overloaded, but rather that they overload on return type, which is set as a sideeffect of things few people can anticipate even with training. I used to like it, but that was before I had to teach it. I cannot offer any solution to this difficulty. It's just too deeply set as part of the language by now. 2. Strings and Numbers No one ever remembers to use "eq" instead of "==". "foo" < "bar" $a["foo"] In Perl 5, all possible numbers that can be misconverted get flagged as warnings with -w, but before that, it's quite silent. Soemtimes I'm not sure that it wouldn't be an evil thing to just punt and assume the other thing, but that would mean automatic conversion to this: "foo" lt "bar" $a{"foo"} which while I might tolerate in the first case, would not in the second one. 3. Barewords The use of barewords is a real source of trouble. That because in something like this: 1a. $x{ "date" } = 42; 1b. $x{ "time" } = 24; 2a. $x { date } = 42; 2b. $x { time } = 24; 3a. $x{ date() } = 42; 3b. $x{ time() } = 24; You can't tell which type of thing the class 2 cases are. There's no way to look at a bareword and no what it's going to do. In this case, 2a is like 1a, but 2b is like 3b. No noe can know that time() is a built-in, or that it hasn't been declared a list-op kind of sub. And there's nothing to stop them from say sub DATE; So even the capitalizied ones aren't safe. So always use quotes and parens and you'll steer clear of this? 4. Unary-Op vs List-ops There are some built-in functions that take one argument only, like chop() and chdir(), but others like print() and unlink(), which take lists. People using || die get burned: chdir "/tmp" || die; unlink $file || die; Are *NOT* consistent. These are really: chdir("/tmp") || die; unlink( $file || die ); Which isn't what you want, but rather: unlink ($file) || die; Of course, they get bitten by print as well print (4+5)*8; Which does at least elicit a warning with -w these days. The real problem is you CANNOT predict which does which! And while you can make your own listops in Perl v5.0, you can't make your own unary ops. So the only solution is to always use parens, which makes things harder to read. 5. Filehandles not real objects Filehandles are strange creatures. They appear to be barewords. People expect them to be variables as they are in other languages. open(FILE, $path); print FILE "stuff\n"; $line = ; close(FILE); But folks would more expect something like this: open($fh, $path); print $fh "stuff\n"; $line = <$fh>; close($fh); That's especially true because then you don't become mystified by how to pass things to subroutines. While you are officially supposed to do this &flush("FILE"); because of barewords, this works: &flush(FILE); but down in the function you have sub flush { local($file) = shift; } and now you use it normally. I think the best solution here is never to use bareword filehandles. Right now, you have to remember to fill them in: $fh = $path; open($fh, $path); But it's too bad that this doesn't happen automatically. In fact, in Perl 5.0, existing scripts that people tried to use this way but without filling in the are currently going to *BREAK*. It would be far better to fill in the $fh, I think. Another difficulty with filehandles is that if you pass one to a subroutine in a different package, you can't use it without name-munging, which isn't something folks expect to have to do. You find yourself doing this: # force unqualified filehandles into caller's package local($fh) = shift; local($package) = caller; $fh =~ s/^[^']+$/$package'$&/; I believe that file handles, directory handles, and formats should always be used with $foo indirect objects. Of course, you have to declare the format with a BAREWORD though. Furthermore, there's no way shy of heavy-handed and potentially perilous type-globbing to declare a local filehandle. But if all you did were this: local($fh); open ($fh, "> $path"); and it got filled in, this wouldn't be a problem. You just have to be able to pass it on to subs in other packages. Then there's the issue of directory handles not acting like filehandles: $line = ; $fname = ; # doesn't work. 6. Filehandles need funny vars for ops Another filehandle-related problem is that you have to do this crufty select business: $ofh = select(WISH); $| = 1; select($ofh); or $ofh = select($wfh); $| = 1; select($ofh); Rather than saying WISH->flush(); $wfh->flush(); But I think that we've pretty much scoped out how to fix that in Perl v5. Filehandles will be objects with methods. The non-fh funny variables will themselves have some sort of mnemonic alias, although whether this is $SYS'ERRNO or whatnot hasn't been precisely worked out yet. 7. Sometimes need scalar, other times tolerate expr As it is, people have a great deal of difficulty making lists or tables of things. That's because there are things in the grammar which absolutely require a literal scalar variable, (or sometimes a list or table), like print $fh "stuff\n"; &$funcptr(): push(@foo, "bar"); but others that tolerate expressions: open(foo.bar, "file"); Some of this is fixed in Perl 5.0: &{$functable{$keystroke}} ( $args ); push( @$foo, "bar" ); but much is now. I would like that everywhere that took a scalar thing would also take an expression that evaluated to one of those. open($fh[1], "fname"); print $fh[1] "stuff\n"; 8. Remembering Defaults People have a hard type remembering that some functions default to $_, or @ARGV, or whatever, but that others which you might expect to do not. For example, the split works on $_, but the unpack doesn't even compile: @x = split ( /\s+/ ); @x = unpack( "A10" x 10 ); Of course, a solution to this is never to use defaults. 9. Do {} isn't a controllable loop Because you can write this: $x = 7 + do { local($i); for(@a) {$i += $_} $i; } * 8; you can't get out of a do{} early. This is VERY counterintuitive for C programmers. You can get out of an eval{} early in Perl 5 with a "return", but better not use that with do. Someone, the normal next, last, and redo should be made to work. Perhaps even warnings could be issued until then on loop control to non-named (first enclosing) loops. 10. Variable Suicide Variable suicide is a nasty side-effect of dynamic scoping and the way variables are passed by reference. If you say $x = 17; &munge($x); sub munge { local($x); local($myvar) = $_[0]; ... } Then you have just clubbered $_[0]! Why this is occurring is pretty heavy wizardry: the reference to $x stored in $_[0] was temporarily occluded by the previous local($x) statement (which, you're recall, occurs at run-time, not compile-time). The work around is simple, however: declare your formal parameters first: sub munge { local($myvar) = $_[0]; local($x); ... } That doesn't help you if you're going to be trying to access @_ directly after the local()s. In this case, careful use of the package facility is your only recourse. Another manifestation of this problem occurs due to the magical nature of the index variable in a foreach() loop. @num = 0 .. 4; print "num begin @num\n"; foreach $m (@num) { &ug } print "num finish @num\n"; sub ug { local($m) = 42; print "m=$m $num[0],$num[1],$num[2],$num[3]\n"; } Which prints out the mysterious: num begin 0 1 2 3 4 m=42 42,1,2,3 m=42 0,42,2,3 m=42 0,1,42,3 m=42 0,1,2,42 m=42 0,1,2,3 num finish 0 1 2 3 4 What's happening here is that $m is an alias for each element of @num. Inside &ug, you temporarily change $m. Well, that means that you've also temporarily changed whatever $m is an alias to!! The only workaround is to be careful with global variables, using packages, and/or just be aware of this potential in foreach() loops. The Perl 5 statically scoped autos available via "my" will not have this problem, and the loop index on foreach() in Perl 5 will now be statically, not dynamically scoped. From astroweb-request Wed Dec 21 11:44:26 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA29816; Wed, 21 Dec 94 11:44:26 EST Return-Path: Message-Id: <9412211647.AA27137@SIMBAD.u-strasbg.fr> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Subject: CERN Date: Wed, 21 Dec 94 17:47:55 +0100 From: egret@SIMBAD.u-strasbg.fr X-Mts: smtp Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU I have no objection to the proposal by Daniel Ponz. Could someone tell me what is the exact status of Sergio with regard to CERN ? Daniel Egret ===================================================================== From astroweb-request Wed Dec 21 14:48:08 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA00802; Wed, 21 Dec 94 14:48:08 EST Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 94 14:48:01 EST From: Bob Jackson Message-Id: <9412211948.AA21582@MARIAN.STSCI.EDU> To: JDP@vilspa.esa.es In-Reply-To: <941220120321.19a26@vilspa.esa.es> (message from Jose Daniel Ponz VILSPA/VCS on Tue, 20 Dec 1994 12:03:21 +0200 (CET)) Subject: Re: A proposal for merging Astroweb and VL at CERN Reply-To: jackson@stsci.edu Cc: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU w.r.t. 2. The complete (merged) AstroWeb database has three instances: - Master database: stored in the AstroWeb Maintenance Center. - Reference database: generated daily from the master database, and stored at CERN. - Mirror databases: downloaded daily by all the centers participating in the AstroWeb consortium (AstroWeb/Level 2 members) from the Reference database at CERN. *************************************************************** I don't see the reason for a separate database stored at CERN. CERN should be just like STScI, NRAO, ... and download the database from STScI and reformat it. *************************************************************** w.r.t. 3. Access to database URLs is done using two levels of pages, very much along the structure of the yp_*.html pages at NRAO. These access pages are generated (daily) at the AstroWeb centers (Level 2 Members), from the Mirror databases, using a set of procedures to be developed (recommendation to use Perl for portability). Common look and feel should be defined for the main AstroWeb-VL page (it is not the case now). *************************************************************** One of the virtues of the master database is that it allows each site to pick their look and feel. In particular there is no agreement on whether or not to display the Description of each resource. A site may also want to have separate listings sorted different criteria, e.g,. one by Category and one by Domain. I think it is more important that each site list all the available resources, which include: http://anarky.stsci.edu/astroweb/search-master.html http://anarky.stsci.edu/brokers/AstroWeb/query.html http://anarky.stsci.edu/cgi-bin/search-master http://anarky.stsci.edu/astroweb/astrowebdead.html http://anarky.stsci.edu/astroweb/astrowebflake.html as well as others at NRAO. I don't see the real need for a LOOK AND FEEL. I am more concerned about COMPLETENESS. *************************************************************** w.r.t. 4. The master database is updated at the Maintenance Center based on the information given in the requests forms, e-mails or discussions within the AstroWeb e-mail list. These updates are manually entered into the database. 5. The Maintenance Center updates the Master Database and generates the Reference Database at CERN. Maintenence Centers are selected for a period of 2 (?) months among the AstroWeb Level 1 members (bussiness class in H.-M.'s e-mail, a few days ago ;-). 6. At the end of the 2 (?) months period, the maintenance duty is assigned to a new Maintenance Center. At that moment, the new database administrator downloads from CERN the Reference Database becoming the new Master Database. 8. Update proposals are done via (HTML-) forms, mantained at ST/ScI. *************************************************************** I think that the existing tools work fairly well. The forms at STSCI allow the Level 1 people to modify the database at any time. OK, I admit that I should implement the "MODIFY Existing Resource" feature, but the "EDIT Entire Database" is almost enough. The forms at NRAO allow other people to submit additions and changes. Thus I think no real changes are needed here. *************************************************************** w.r.t. 7. E-mail discussions and updates (database quality control) are posted in the AstroWeb e-mail exploder. The exploder is implemented at, and controlled by NRAO. E-mail is distributed among AstroWeb Level 1 members. *************************************************************** I have been thinking about some sort of change announcement facility or change tracking facility for the master database. But alas I have done nothing yet. *************************************************************** The only distinction between Level 1 and Level 2 is that Level 1 folks can edit the Master Database. Otherwise they all must routinely download the HTML or TCL version of the Master Database and reformat it to their needs. We already have tools which can be used to do this which we could give to any level 2 site. Level 2 people could not edit their local version to add or change records (not that Level 1 people should either). Any changes must be made to the Master Database and not to a local HTML file. Bob From astroweb-request Wed Dec 21 15:53:54 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA01183; Wed, 21 Dec 94 15:53:54 EST Return-Path: Date: Wed, 21 Dec 94 15:53:47 EST From: Bob Jackson Message-Id: <9412212053.AA21847@MARIAN.STSCI.EDU> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU, library@stsci.edu, miller@stsci.edu, kstrom@hanksville.phast.umass.edu, ginsparg@xxx.lanl.gov Subject: Comments? Reply-To: jackson@stsci.edu Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU A Possible Next Step in Electronic Publishing

A Possible Next Step in Electronic Publishing

More and more astronomical information is being disseminated via preprints by authors, publications by organizations, and conference proceedings, as well as by refereed journals. However there have been no improvements in the ability to discover the information you want. At the same time, subscription prices are rising out of the range of many libraries and individuals. The linking of peer review with publication in a journal means that unpublished but still valuable information is lost and that all papers published in the same journal get the same score when used for tenure evaluation or professional review. I would like to propose an alternative publishing method which uses Referee_Servers's, Publisher_Server's, Author_Server's, and Index_Server's.

  • A Referee_Server would contain ratings, comments, and links to articles located on Author_Server's or Publisher_Server's.
  • A Publisher_Server would contain online versions of articles which are distributed by that publisher via hard media, e.g., paper or CD-ROM. The server would provide a full-text or partial-text index to all articles published.
  • An Author_Server would contain all versions of an article, links to the version on a Publisher_Server, links to the ratings and comments on a Referee_Servers, links to other articles citing the article, and a USENET News-like tree of comments about the article. The server would provide a full-text or partial-text index of all articles.
  • An Index_Server would contain a partial-text index of all articles in a specific field with the additional ability to restrict searches to articles appearing on specific Publisher_Server's or Referee_Servers's.
A professional society could run both a Referee_Server and a Publisher_Server. A publishing house could run a Index_Server. But there is nothing to prevent individuals, groups, or an organization from running a Referee_Server or Publisher_Server or Index_Server.

This approach would provide a more flexible system, in which more information is available and discoverable, while reducing the costs of access to information. From astroweb-request Thu Dec 22 13:17:39 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA05778; Thu, 22 Dec 94 13:17:39 EST Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 19:19:17 +0200 (CET) From: Jose Daniel Ponz VILSPA/VCS To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Cc: JDP@vilspa.esa.es Message-Id: <941222191917.22668@vilspa.esa.es> Subject: Re: A proposal for merging Astroweb and VL at CERN Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Bob Jackson writes > I would instead (Perl) recommend Tcl ... Recommendation accepted, ... because Tcl procedures are already implemented. > I don't see the reason for a separate database stored at CERN. > CERN should be just like STScI, NRAO, ... and download the > database from STScI and reformat it. My suggestion was not to have a separate database at CERN, but to negotiate the merging of both databases so that the reference database would be located at CERN (to add a prestigious location) and the master would _rotate_ among Level 1 members (to share the maintenance burden and, more important, to share technical expertise). If this is an aspect of the negotiation that you do not accept is another question. Your proposal is also reasonable (having CERN as a mirror copy of the master at STScI, with shared maintenance). If Sergio Paoli agrees with your idea, then the problem is solved and we can start working on the merging. > I don't see the real need for a LOOK AND FEEL. > I am more concerned about COMPLETENESS. So am I. Uniform look and feel is less important than completeness and easy information access. > I think that the existing tools work fairly well. Yes. It was only my ignorance about your procedures. It was not obvious from the on-line documentation I browsed. Daniel From www_server Thu Dec 22 17:08:22 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA06579; Thu, 22 Dec 94 17:08:22 EST Return-Path: Date: Thu, 22 Dec 94 17:08:17 EST From: www_server@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU (httpd@fits.cv.nrao.edu) Message-Id: <9412222208.AA06568@fits.cv.nrao.edu> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU, mdittmar@cossc.gsfc.nasa.gov Subject: node name correction Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Message entered by: Mark Cresitello-Dittmar @ cossc.gsfc.nasa.gov [128.183.4.74] To whom it may concern, The Compton Gamma Ray Observatory Science Support Center (COSSC) is in the process of changing the server node enemy.gsfc.nasa.gov to cossc.gsfc.nasa.gov I have noticed that this node is referenced in your database, and would appreciate your updating this item. The node "enemy" will become inactive as of January 1, 1995. Thank you for your help. From astroweb-request Tue Dec 27 15:29:43 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA17709; Tue, 27 Dec 94 15:29:43 EST Return-Path: Date: Tue, 27 Dec 94 15:29:32 EST From: Bob Jackson Message-Id: <9412272029.AA22618@MARIAN.STSCI.EDU> To: morisset@Gin.ObsPM.Fr Subject: anarky robot Reply-To: jackson@stsci.edu Cc: tomd@stsci.edu, fred@stsci.edu, astroweb@NRAO.EDU Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU with respect to: > Here is a part of our access_logfile, showing a robot comming from anarky every > 7 hours. Would you be nice enough to ask the owner of the robot stoping > it? Thx ;-) ________________________________________________________ The following URL's are listed in the AstroWeb database: url: { http://gin.obspm.fr/ } longtitle: { D&eacute;partement d'Astrophysique Extragalactique et de Cosmologie } category: { dept } shorttitle: { DAEC } description: { The DAEC is the the D&eacute;partement d'Astrophysique Extragalactique et de Cosmologie. It's in the Paris Meudon observatory, and is situated in Meudon near Paris, France. } url: { http://gin.obspm.fr/~cappi } longtitle: { CAPPI, Alberto } category: { personal } owner: { cappi@astbo3.bo.astro.it } shorttitle: { Bologna Astronomical Observatory } url: { http://gin.obspm.fr/~gam/ } longtitle: { MAMON, Gary } category: { personal } owner: { gam@iap.fr } shorttitle: { IAP } url: { http://gin.obspm.fr/~morisset } longtitle: { MORISSET, Christophe } category: { personal } owner: { morisset@obspm.fr } shorttitle: { DAEC } As part of the value-added services provided by AstroWeb, we verify that each of the URL's is alive by a program which runs three times a day. There are three ways by which 'we' can eliminate this querying: 1. Remove these records from AstroWeb. Not a good idea 2. Set up the gin.obspm.fr server to reject connections from anarky.stsci.edu. This will result in labeling those URL's as "Inactive?" 3. Change the program to ignore your site. I don't have time to do this at present. I would like to know if this querying entails SERIOUS costs, or is your request driven by aesthetic preferences. If there are costs which I don't appreciate, I am open to doing the third option much sooner. Bob From astroweb-request Tue Dec 27 15:37:33 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA17729; Tue, 27 Dec 94 15:37:33 EST Return-Path: Date: Tue, 27 Dec 94 15:37:27 EST From: Bob Jackson Message-Id: <9412272037.AA22648@MARIAN.STSCI.EDU> To: JDP@vilspa.esa.es Subject: Re: A proposal for merging Astroweb and VL at CERN Reply-To: jackson@stsci.edu Cc: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU > I don't see the reason for a separate database stored at CERN. > CERN should be just like STScI, NRAO, ... and download the > database from STScI and reformat it. My suggestion was not to have a separate database at CERN, but to negotiate the merging of both databases so that the reference database would be located at CERN (to add a prestigious location) and the master would _rotate_ among Level 1 members (to share the maintenance burden and, more important, to share technical expertise). If this is an aspect of the negotiation that you do not accept is another question. Your proposal is also reasonable (having CERN as a mirror copy of the master at STScI, with shared maintenance). If Sergio Paoli agrees with your idea, then the problem is solved and we can start working on the merging. ************************************************************ I whole heartedly agree that the AstroWeb and CERN databases should be merged. But the location of the reference database is irrelevant since its location is completely hidden from the user via the tools which create the local HTML versions of the database. The remote editing facility eliminates allows any level-1 member to edit the database at any time and thus eliminates the need for the database to be located at a specific site. A rotating location adds extra operational complexity with no real gains. Bob From astroweb-request Wed Dec 28 01:29:50 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA18094; Wed, 28 Dec 94 01:29:50 EST Return-Path: Message-Id: <9412280629.AA10683@cdsxb6.u-strasbg.fr> To: astroweb@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Cc: heck@cdsxb6.u-strasbg.fr Subject: Master base location Date: Wed, 28 Dec 94 07:29:39 +0100 From: Andre HECK Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Allow me to come into this debate about the location of the master base, because I am afraid it is next to the main point, if we are aiming at a long-term policy. If the last arguments of Bob are correct, they can be used in favor of one site or another though. What should matter basically is a guarantee that the location adopted will not be kicking out AstroWeb from one day to the other without ad hoc warning and that an adequate maintenance, resp. development, of the base will be ensured even if, for some reasons, the current human kernel is no more available. Correct me if I am wrong, but the only place that offered such a service and guarantee from an institutional point of view is CDS located at Strasbourg Observatory (no chauvinism: I am Observatory, not CDS ...). This is of course understandable since this is part of CDS' fundamental mission. By the way, ... * -|- | *************************************** * * * * * * * * . * * H A P P Y * * -|- * * * * * * N E W Y E A R ! * * . -|-* * * * . * * * *-|- * *************************************** * . * *. . -|- * *-|- -|- . . * * . -|- * * _ _ * |_| __/___\__ ... and see you in a few days in Tucson? Andre. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ (Prof.) Andre HECK -+- * Phone (direct) +33-88.35.82.22 Observatoire Astronomique * Phone (Secretary) +33-88.35.82.18 11, rue de l'Universite -+- * Fax (direct/private) +33-88.49.12.55 F-67000 Strasbourg * -+- Fax (Secretary) +33-88.25.01.60 France -+- * * ISDN/Numeris (priv.) +33-88.48.20.60 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ e-mail: heck@astro.u-strasbg.fr URL: http://cdsweb.u-strasbg.fr/~heck ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From astroweb-request Wed Dec 28 08:39:26 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA19792; Wed, 28 Dec 94 08:39:26 EST Return-Path: Date: Wed, 28 Dec 1994 14:41:36 +0200 (CET) From: Jose Daniel Ponz VILSPA/VCS To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Message-Id: <941228144136.2cf92@vilspa.esa.es> Subject: Re: A proposal for merging Astroweb and VL at CERN Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Bob Jackson writes > ..the location of the reference database is irrelevant > since its location is completely hidden from the user .. The function (I foresee) for the reference database is just to serve as focal point as follows: Reference database is the source (in HTML-format) of all mirror sites. The AstroWeb consortium could provide a common procedure to _all_ centers that want to keep a mirror copy of the database. This procedure, to be included in the local crontab, will just periodically download the _reference_ database. This is (I understand) the way in which the current VL is maintained at CERN: Sergio Paoli keeps the master version, but the database used as reference by all centers is located at CERN. If we want to negotiate (1) the merging and (2) that the new -merged- master database is at ST/ScI, with remote editing (it is a good technical solution), we should also give something back to Sergio, namely, that users _continue_ accessing CERN as reference. This will be the main question to negotiate with Sergio, once we agree upon it. ------------------------------- On robots, Bob writes > As part of the value-added services provided by AstroWeb, we verify > that each of the URL's is alive by a program... Users should be informed, when they request to be added into the AstroWeb database, about the verification service provided by AstroWeb (by executing the robot - MOMspider? - periodically to verify the URL's). In addition, the consortium could also inform them on the usage of the standard for robot exclusion in the local URL "/robots.txt". ------------------------------- On a different subject: I wish you a Happy New Year !! Daniel From dwells Wed Dec 28 10:02:08 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA19906; Wed, 28 Dec 94 10:02:08 EST Return-Path: Date: Wed, 28 Dec 94 10:02:03 EST From: dwells@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU (Don Wells) Message-Id: <9412281502.AA19897@fits.cv.nrao.edu> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Subject: Re: A proposal for merging Astroweb and VL at CERN In-Reply-To: <941228144136.2cf92@vilspa.esa.es> References: <941228144136.2cf92@vilspa.esa.es> Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Jose Daniel Ponz writes: > Reference database is the source (in HTML-format) of all mirror sites. ^^^^^^^^^^ Bob chose to use TCL as the programming language for the central database. He, therefore, developed an alternative format for the data. The information content is identical, and we can freely translate from one language to the other. Our documentation about the format does not make this clear, because Bob did not develop the central database concept until about June, and the documentation has not been revised. > The AstroWeb consortium could provide a common procedure to _all_ centers > that want to keep a mirror copy of the database. This procedure, to be > included in the local crontab, will just periodically download the > _reference_ database. MSSSO and STECF operate with variations of the procedures which I originally built (in the programming language AWK). Any new consortium members are welcome to my code, and I am sure that Anton and Hans-Martin will make the same offer for their versions. Bob uses TCL. All of these solutions work, and other languages could be used too. There is no need to agree on a single master version of the software. > Sergio Paoli keeps the master version, but the database used as reference by > all centers is located at CERN. Bob and I are recommending that Sergio simply substitute the STScI database for his master version at La Plata. He will compute the CERN pages, and any mirror copies of the VL will work from the CERN version. CERN can continue to be the master version for astronomy VL. > .. users _continue_ > accessing CERN as reference. Actually, it appears to me that the astronomy users know that AstroWeb is the reference. As soon as Sergio looked at our database, even he acknowledged that it was more complete than the VL pages. Changing the CERN VL pages to be computed from AstroWeb will mean that the general public will be seeing the full database. -*- In the end, our real strength is our distributed character, the fact that we are a _team_. My real reason for suggesting that Sergio be invited to join us is that he is likely to add to the strength of the team. Frankly, in the end, I don't care about the CERN VL, I care about professional astronomy. AstroWeb is a team effort, _by_ people associated with professional astronomy organization, _for_ people associated with professional astronomy organizations. We need diversity in our team in order to assure that we can serve _all_ of professional astronomy. Support for the general public and amateurs is a secondary priority for us. Sergio has found URLs on his own, and has developed a category on his own; he should be on our team. > Users should be informed, when they request to be added into the AstroWeb > database, about the verification service provided by AstroWeb > (by executing the robot - MOMspider? - periodically to verify the URL's). > In addition, the consortium could also inform them on the usage of the > standard for robot exclusion in the local URL "/robots.txt". Many of the records in our database have OWNER fields. We should devise a robot which will verify the addresses periodically, and will produce a list of "dead" Email addresses. We should add more OWNER fields to the database. Eventually we should build a robot which will send Email to OWNERs periodically. The messages would ask them to review their record, and it would be reasonable to remind the OWNERs that their URLs and Email addresses are being checked by daemon processes. We need some convenient and safe update procedure so that OWNERs can help us to maintain the data. -Don From astroweb-request Thu Dec 29 08:49:35 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA20958; Thu, 29 Dec 94 08:49:35 EST Return-Path: Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 14:51:25 +0200 (CET) From: Jose Daniel Ponz VILSPA/VCS To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Message-Id: <941229145125.2e64d@vilspa.esa.es> Subject: Merging proposal, version 2.0 Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU After the discussions on the merging proposal, here you have the simplified (second) version: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Proposal for merging AstroWeb and WWW VL-Asron&Astrophys. at CERN into ``The AstroWeb Virtual Library'' version 2.0 ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Generate a common database by merging URLs in AstroWeb and WWW-VL. The new master version of the database, in TCL form, is located at ST/ScI. 2. An HTML-format version of the database is generated from the master, and mirror copies are transferred to Level-1 centers. 3. Level-1 centers are CDS, CERN, MSSSO, NRAO, ST/ECF, ST/ScI and VILSPA. 4. The master database is maintained by people at level-1 centers, using the remote editing facility. Information required to update the database is collected via update/correction forms, e-mails and discussions in the AstroWeb exploder. 5. Sergio Paoli is invited to joint the group. He will maintain the CERN mirror copy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you have additional comments this proposal, before sending it to Sergio? Daniel From astroweb-request Thu Dec 29 09:43:47 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA21051; Thu, 29 Dec 94 09:43:47 EST Return-Path: Date: Fri, 30 Dec 94 01:43:31 EST From: anton@mso.anu.edu.au (anton koekemoer) Message-Id: <9412291443.AA21212@merlin.anu.edu.au> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Subject: Re: Merging proposal, version 2.0 Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Jose Daniel Ponz writes: > After the discussions on the merging proposal, here you have the simplified > (second) version: > ... > Do you have additional comments this proposal, before sending it to Sergio? Fine by me, especially in terms of reflecting the current Astroweb mechanism. W.r.t. to what Don wrote, > ... > MSSSO and STECF operate with variations of the procedures which I > originally built (in the programming language AWK). Any new consortium > members are welcome to my code, and I am sure that Anton and > Hans-Martin will make the same offer for their versions. Bob uses yes you're quite welcome to take a look at the scripts I use to make my version of Astroweb at MSSSO (I took Don's scripts in April and finished most of the kludging by early June, so they may have diverged somewhat from the current NRAO scripts; you may find it instructive to do a 'diff' between them) - and also my modified versions of the tcl scripts (from Bob and Daniel Egret) to regularly update the files at MSSSO. Don't know how much use all these will be to you, apart from yet another example of how to make one's own set of Astroweb pages :).. In any case the top-level directory for the awk scripts and Makefile is http://meteor.anu.edu.au/anton/astroweb/ while the tcl scripts used for fetching/updating live in: http://meteor.anu.edu.au/anton/astroweb/fetch/ (see the README for a description). None of my kludges are particularly elegant, they just work (generally..). Presumably I could achieve the same result using only tcl, as Bob has done - but I've not had the time to look into this. cheers, - anton. From dwells Thu Dec 29 10:48:35 1994 Received: by fits.cv.nrao.edu (4.1/DDN-DLB/1.5) id AA21217; Thu, 29 Dec 94 10:48:35 EST Return-Path: Date: Thu, 29 Dec 94 10:48:31 EST From: dwells@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU (Don Wells) Message-Id: <9412291548.AA21208@fits.cv.nrao.edu> To: astroweb@NRAO.EDU Subject: Re: Merging proposal, version 2.0 In-Reply-To: <941229145125.2e64d@vilspa.esa.es> References: <941229145125.2e64d@vilspa.esa.es> Sender: astroweb-request@fits.CV.NRAO.EDU Jose Daniel Ponz writes: > Proposal for merging AstroWeb and WWW VL-Asron&Astrophys. at CERN into > ``The AstroWeb Virtual Library'' I recommend that the title be "Proposal for merging AstroWeb and WWW VL-Astron.&Astrophys.". Both AstroWeb and the Virtual Library have name-recognition which should be maintained; invention of a third name is not justified, and would even be counter-productive. The proposal should say that the AstroWeb pages will mention that CERN-VL (LaPlata) is a part of the Consortium, and that the CERN-VL pages will mention that their data comes from the AstroWeb database. The proposal should recommend that the CERN-VL pages will contain links to the AstroWeb search service(s) and entry forms. > 1. Generate a common database by merging URLs in AstroWeb and WWW-VL. The proposal should state that Sergio will not have to do all of the hard work of the merger -- the Consortium members will share the burden. I recommend that the implementation plan be that Sergio will create the daemon which will compute the CERN-VL pages from the AstroWeb database while the rest of the AstroWeb team is adding the CERN-VL records to the database. At the end of the process, after testing and the changeover, we can make a joint announcement of some sort. > 3. Level-1 centers are CDS, CERN, MSSSO, NRAO, ST/ECF, ST/ScI and VILSPA. For "CERN", I would say "CERN-VL (LaPlata)". -Don