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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 1998 17:57:59 GMT
From: gsh at tantalus.clark.net (Greg Hennessy)
Message-ID: <F1t38n.90t at tantalus.clark.net>
Organization: Grey Cat Central
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Subject: WCS question
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I am working on producing a set of images on CDROM that will have
astrometry according to the Greisen and Calabretta A&A 1996 paper, but
the four allowed values for RADECSYS are two for FK4, one FK5, and one
geocentric apparent place. The images I will be working on are
reduced against the ACT catalog. Are there any conventions to what
RADECSYS should be for this? I would assume 'HIP' but would like some
advice. 

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Tue Nov  3 10:47:38 1998
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: 30 Oct 1998 16:25:38 GMT
From: valdes at tucana.tuc.noao.edu (Frank Valdes)
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Organization: IRAF Project, National Optical Astronomy Observatories
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References: <199810292230.OAA05573 at shatner>
Subject: Re: A question on keywords for 3-D images
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Hello Bob,

Of your two options, 3D image with indexed keywords and image extensions, the
latter is the one to use.  Indexed keywords are a hassle and there is
no standard way to do this.  You would be unlikely to find software which
used this.  Multiextension FITS is actually quite commonly used in
applications such as yours.  Examples of this are the NOAO CCD Mosaic
format (8 CCDs recorded in a file with 8 image extensions) and
NICMOS/STIS.  Because this is a very useful format it is well supported
in IRAF.  Any IRAF task that operates on a 2D image can access any
of the extensions with a simple syntax; for example

    cl> display sirtif01[im7]

would access the extension with EXTNAME of "im7".  The syntax also allows
a positional selection such as sirtif01[3] to get the third extension in
the file.  The important advantage regard keywords is that if a program
understands a particular set of keywords, such as SIGMA, then it will
work with any extension and you don't need all the indexing stuff.

Another aspect of the multiextension format, adopted as a convention by
HST and NOAO, is the use of a global header.  The primary FITS unit consists
only of keywords.  These keywords are common to all the image extensions
in the file.  Thus the image extension headers can contain just the
keywords which are different.  The IRAF software supports this concept
of keyword inheritance.  Any task that access an image extension, as in
the above example, sees a single header which is the merger of the global
keywords and the separate extension keywords.  It does not need to know
about the inheritance and two headers as this is taken care of by the
I/O routines.

So the summary is use multiextension FITS, possibly with the inheritance
convention, which is a solution adopted by a number of projects and is
well supported at least in IRAF.

Cheers,
Frank Valdes
NOAO/IRAF Group

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Tue Nov  3 10:49:11 1998
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: 30 Oct 1998 17:37:56 GMT
From: hodge at bowline.stsci.edu (Phil Hodge)
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Organization: Space Telescope Science Institute
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References: <199810292230.OAA05573 at shatner>
Subject: Re: A question on keywords for 3-D images
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>  Each extension would contain a 2D image and its own set of
>  keywords.  Going to this form loses the 3-D nature of the data with
>  each 2-D image looking like an independent image rather than being
>  part of a 3-D cube.  Also, there is a concern is that many FITS
>  readers and standard software may not be able to deal with files in
>  this form.  It may not be supported well in IRAF, CFITSIO, etc. for
>  3-D operations.

Yes, you would lose the 3-D nature of the data by using either rows
or columns of 2-D table entries or multiple 2-D image extensions.

Phil

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Tue Nov  3 10:51:52 1998
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 00:18:32 GMT
From: dmunro at sfu.ca (Duncan Munro)
Message-ID: <363cf8c8.12998934 at newsserver.sfu.ca>
Organization: Simon Fraser University
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Subject: Xfitsview port to Xfree86-OS/2
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I have ported Xfitsview to OS/2. It requires Xfree86-OS/2. The archive
is named Xfitsvew.zip and is currently in 
(ftp or http) hobbes.nmsu.edu/incoming 
with a proposed placement in hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/apps/astro

Xfitsview is a fits file viewer with astrometry capabilties.
For more info on Xfitsview see:

http://www.cv.nrao.edu/~bcotton/fitsview.html


Duncan Munro

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Tue Nov  3 10:54:48 1998
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Mon, 02 Nov 1998 12:49:02 +0000
From: Pere L Palle <plp at ll.iac.es>
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Organization: Instituto de Astrofisica de Canarias
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Subject: reading fits from MATLAB
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--------------93D98F05B86066A7E3DF4E06
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Hi colleagues,

I have just joined this newsgroup because of an urgent problem !!!

I need to read "fits" data files from inside Matlab 5.2.

I had some old codes, but does seem to work properly...

Does any one know about the xsitence of Matlab routines to read fits

data files (no images, but data).

    Thanks in advance

        Pere

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
#  Pere L. Palle                        E-mail: plp at ll.iac.es             #
#  Instituto de Astrofisica de Canarias         ppalle at solar.stanford.edu #
#  38205 LA LAGUNA (Tenerife)           Phone:  (34) 922 605384           #
#  SPAIN                                Fax:    (34) 922 605210           #
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



--------------93D98F05B86066A7E3DF4E06
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<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>

<pre>Hi colleagues,</pre>

<pre>I have just joined this newsgroup because of an urgent problem !!!</pre>

<pre>I need to read "fits" data files from inside Matlab 5.2.</pre>

<pre>I had some old codes, but does seem to work properly...</pre>

<pre></pre>

<pre>Does any one know about the xsitence of Matlab routines to read fits</pre>

<pre>data files (no images, but data).</pre>

<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Thanks in advance</pre>

<pre>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Pere</pre>

<pre>--&nbsp;
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
#&nbsp; Pere L. Palle&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; E-mail: plp at ll.iac.es&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; #&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
#&nbsp; Instituto de Astrofisica de Canarias&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; ppalle at solar.stanford.edu #
#&nbsp; 38205 LA LAGUNA (Tenerife)&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Phone:&nbsp; (34) 922 605384&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; #
#&nbsp; SPAIN&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Fax:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (34) 922 605210&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; #
---------------------------------------------------------------------------</pre>
&nbsp;</html>

--------------93D98F05B86066A7E3DF4E06--

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Fri Nov  6 16:53:22 1998
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Subject: Re: WCS question
In-Reply-To: <F1t38n.90t at tantalus.clark.net> from Greg Hennessy at "Nov 2, 98 05:57:59 pm"
To: gsh at tantalus.clark.net (Greg Hennessy)
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The logical next value for RADECSYS is "ICRS".  That is what we will
be using for AXAF.

  - Arnold Rots

Greg Hennessy wrote:
> 
> I am working on producing a set of images on CDROM that will have
> astrometry according to the Greisen and Calabretta A&A 1996 paper, but
> the four allowed values for RADECSYS are two for FK4, one FK5, and one
> geocentric apparent place. The images I will be working on are
> reduced against the ACT catalog. Are there any conventions to what
> RADECSYS should be for this? I would assume 'HIP' but would like some
> advice. 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arnold H. Rots                                         AXAF Science Center
Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory                tel:  +1 617 496 7701
60 Garden Street, MS 81                              fax:  +1 617 495 7356
Cambridge, MA 02138                             arots at head-cfa.harvard.edu
USA                                     http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~arots/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Subject: Re: A question on keywords for 3-D images
In-Reply-To: <71cpa2$i9g$1 at noao.tuc.noao.edu> from Frank Valdes at "Oct 30, 98 04:25:38 pm"
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I would strongly warn against the use of this convention.  If all you
want is to use your images in IRAF and if you know others will do the
same, in perpetuity, it's fine.  But most other systems explicitly
assume the opposite: each HDU stands by itself and there is no
inheritance.  Previous discussions on the subject concluded that the
notion of inheritance is not supported by the FITS standard and may
not be assumed.

  - Arnold Rots

Frank Valdes wrote:
> Hello Bob,
> ...
> 
> Another aspect of the multiextension format, adopted as a convention by
> HST and NOAO, is the use of a global header.  The primary FITS unit consists
> only of keywords.  These keywords are common to all the image extensions
> in the file.  Thus the image extension headers can contain just the
> keywords which are different.  The IRAF software supports this concept
> of keyword inheritance.  Any task that access an image extension, as in
> the above example, sees a single header which is the merger of the global
> keywords and the separate extension keywords.  It does not need to know
> about the inheritance and two headers as this is taken care of by the
> I/O routines.
> 
> So the summary is use multiextension FITS, possibly with the inheritance
> convention, which is a solution adopted by a number of projects and is
> well supported at least in IRAF.
> 
> Cheers,
> Frank Valdes
> NOAO/IRAF Group

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arnold H. Rots                                         AXAF Science Center
Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory                tel:  +1 617 496 7701
60 Garden Street, MS 81                              fax:  +1 617 495 7356
Cambridge, MA 02138                             arots at head-cfa.harvard.edu
USA                                     http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~arots/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From: valdes at noao.edu (Frank Valdes)
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To: arots at head-cfa.harvard.edu
Subject: Re: A question on keywords for 3-D images
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Hello Arnold,

I appreciate your concern.  However, the usage of this is larger than you
may think.  The inheritance approach began, I believe, with the needs at
HST for the new instruments (NICMOS/STIS).  Years of software development
has gone into this and it has been discussed and status papers have been
presented at ADASS for many years.  The IRAF FITS kernel support for
inheritance began at ST.  I expect HST to continue to use this
approach.  NOAO adopted this because it made sense for mosaic instruments
but it is a smaller effort.  One thing I did not say in my posting is that
for the NOAO Mosaic the header design is such that critical keywords are
included in all extensions even though they are the same in all extensions.
For example, exposure time appears in all extensions.  Thus any software
which may not merge the global keywords will still have a useful minimal
header for interpreting the data.

I purposely phrased my comment that this was a "convention" since, as
you say, it is not a FITS standard.  However the idea of conventions is
a known practice in the community.  There is no "assumption" that this
is supported by all FITS readers (though all readers should be able to
ingest both the primary (global) and extension headers.  For the
specific formats, NICMOS, STIS, NOAO/MOSAIC, other similar mosaics,
people will be advised of the format.  It is not very hard to merge
headers if needed.

Frank Valdes

My role in this has been in the design of the NOAO Mosaic format and I had
little to do with the development of the convention.

> From arots at head-cfa.harvard.edu Thu Nov  5 08:25:03 1998
> 
> I would strongly warn against the use of this convention.  If all you
> want is to use your images in IRAF and if you know others will do the
> same, in perpetuity, it's fine.  But most other systems explicitly
> assume the opposite: each HDU stands by itself and there is no
> inheritance.  Previous discussions on the subject concluded that the
> notion of inheritance is not supported by the FITS standard and may
> not be assumed.
> 
>   - Arnold Rots

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From: Arnold Rots <arots at head-cfa.harvard.edu>
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Subject: Re: A question on keywords for 3-D images
In-Reply-To: <9811051709.AA21977 at tucana.tuc.noao.edu> from Frank Valdes at "Nov 5, 98 10:09:44 am"
To: valdes at noao.edu (Frank Valdes)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:37:00 -0500 (EST)
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I agree that adopting the convention in the context of HST is
reasonably safe, but would argue that its adoption outside that
context is dangerous.  I certainly appreciated your use of the word
"convention", but although most conventions are fairly harmless if not
understood, this one can bite the unwary user: software will either
support this convention or its opposite - there is no "neutral" position.

Hence, the safe thing is not to assume inheritance and repeat all
relevant keywords in all headers.

  - Arnold

Frank Valdes wrote:
> Hello Arnold,
> 
> I appreciate your concern.  However, the usage of this is larger than you
> may think.  The inheritance approach began, I believe, with the needs at
> HST for the new instruments (NICMOS/STIS).  Years of software development
> has gone into this and it has been discussed and status papers have been
> presented at ADASS for many years.  The IRAF FITS kernel support for
> inheritance began at ST.  I expect HST to continue to use this
> approach.  NOAO adopted this because it made sense for mosaic instruments
> but it is a smaller effort.  One thing I did not say in my posting is that
> for the NOAO Mosaic the header design is such that critical keywords are
> included in all extensions even though they are the same in all extensions.
> For example, exposure time appears in all extensions.  Thus any software
> which may not merge the global keywords will still have a useful minimal
> header for interpreting the data.
> 
> I purposely phrased my comment that this was a "convention" since, as
> you say, it is not a FITS standard.  However the idea of conventions is
> a known practice in the community.  There is no "assumption" that this
> is supported by all FITS readers (though all readers should be able to
> ingest both the primary (global) and extension headers.  For the
> specific formats, NICMOS, STIS, NOAO/MOSAIC, other similar mosaics,
> people will be advised of the format.  It is not very hard to merge
> headers if needed.
> 
> Frank Valdes
> 
> My role in this has been in the design of the NOAO Mosaic format and I had
> little to do with the development of the convention.
> 
> > From arots at head-cfa.harvard.edu Thu Nov  5 08:25:03 1998
> > 
> > I would strongly warn against the use of this convention.  If all you
> > want is to use your images in IRAF and if you know others will do the
> > same, in perpetuity, it's fine.  But most other systems explicitly
> > assume the opposite: each HDU stands by itself and there is no
> > inheritance.  Previous discussions on the subject concluded that the
> > notion of inheritance is not supported by the FITS standard and may
> > not be assumed.
> > 
> >   - Arnold Rots

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arnold H. Rots                                         AXAF Science Center
Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory                tel:  +1 617 496 7701
60 Garden Street, MS 81                              fax:  +1 617 495 7356
Cambridge, MA 02138                             arots at head-cfa.harvard.edu
USA                                     http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~arots/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 1998 14:51:11 -0500
From: Doug Mink <dmink at cfa.harvard.edu>
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Subject: Re: WCS question
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Greg Hennessy wrote:
> 
> I am working on producing a set of images on CDROM that will have
> astrometry according to the Greisen and Calabretta A&A 1996 paper, but
> the four allowed values for RADECSYS are two for FK4, one FK5, and one
> geocentric apparent place. The images I will be working on are
> reduced against the ACT catalog. Are there any conventions to what
> RADECSYS should be for this? I would assume 'HIP' but would like some
> advice.

We talked about this at ADASS, and there was some agreement that the
RADECSYS for Tycho- and ACT- (and Hipparcos-) based images could be
HIPPARCOS (spelled out).  Pat Wallace has subroutines which convert
between the Hipparcos system and J2000, and I will be adding them
to my WCSTools package as soon as I get them from him.

-Doug Mink
 WCSTools developer ( http://tdc-www.harvard.edu/software/wcstools/ )

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Mon Nov  9 10:02:28 1998
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Subject: Re: WCS question
In-Reply-To: <364201AF.1ABA8298 at cfa.harvard.edu> from Doug Mink at "Nov 5, 98 02:51:11 pm"
To: dmink at cfa.harvard.edu (Doug Mink)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 09:42:03 -0500 (EST)
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Doug Mink wrote:
> Greg Hennessy wrote:
> > 
> > I am working on producing a set of images on CDROM that will have
> > astrometry according to the Greisen and Calabretta A&A 1996 paper, but
> > the four allowed values for RADECSYS are two for FK4, one FK5, and one
> > geocentric apparent place. The images I will be working on are
> > reduced against the ACT catalog. Are there any conventions to what
> > RADECSYS should be for this? I would assume 'HIP' but would like some
> > advice.
> 
> We talked about this at ADASS, and there was some agreement that the
> RADECSYS for Tycho- and ACT- (and Hipparcos-) based images could be
> HIPPARCOS (spelled out).  Pat Wallace has subroutines which convert
> between the Hipparcos system and J2000, and I will be adding them
> to my WCSTools package as soon as I get them from him.
> 
> -Doug Mink
>  WCSTools developer ( http://tdc-www.harvard.edu/software/wcstools/ )

Be careful!  There are three elements to the definition of a reference
frame: the epoch (2000), J or B, and the reference frame itself (FK5,
ICRS).  FK4 is the one commonly used with B1950.  Its J-equivalent FK5
has sofar been used with J2000.  However, "J2000" does not imply FK5
(as you imply above).  Instead, the IAU recommendation is to move from
J2000-FK5 to J2000-ICRS.  ICRS, based on Hipparcos and Tycho data, is
the official designation of the reference system and, hence, would seem
the logical choice for RADECSYS.

A similar issue comes up in the transformation from DE200 to DE405.
That transformation is close to FK5 -> ICRS.
Just for reference, this is the comment section for the function that
does that conversion:

 *  c200to405 converts a direction cosine vector from the DE200 frame
 *  (nominally FK5, but not quite) to the DE405 frame (ICRS).
 *  
 *  double dir[3]    direction cosine vector (in and out)
 *  
 *  The formula, according to Standish, is:
 *  
 *    dir(DE405) = dir(DE200) + eps x dir(DE200)
 *  
 *  where eps = (0.002, 0.012, 0.006) / 206265


  - Arnold Rots


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arnold H. Rots                                         AXAF Science Center
Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory                tel:  +1 617 496 7701
60 Garden Street, MS 81                              fax:  +1 617 495 7356
Cambridge, MA 02138                             arots at head-cfa.harvard.edu
USA                                     http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~arots/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Subject: Re: WCS question
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On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Arnold Rots wrote:

> Be careful!  There are three elements to the definition of a reference
> frame: the epoch (2000), J or B, and the reference frame itself (FK5,
> ICRS).

No longer true for ICRF.

> However, "J2000" does not imply FK5 (as you imply above).

Maybe not, strictly speaking, but in practice "J2000" is always taken
to mean "in accordance with the IAU 1976 recommendations", which, as
well as introducing J2000 as the fundamental epoch, brought in a
specific precession model (Lieske's) and frame (FK5).

> Instead, the IAU recommendation is to move from J2000-FK5 to J2000-ICRS.

The J2000 is superfluous in the case of ICRS.  You only need epochs
when the system depends on a model of precession.  ICRS has no ecliptic
or equinox.  It is fixed for all time in the extragalactic background,
liberated from considerations of the Earth's orientation or orbit.  If
you wrote J2050-ICRS it wouldn't mean anything.


Patrick Wallace
____________________________________________________________________________
Starlink Project Manager                        Internet:  ptw at star.rl.ac.uk
Rutherford Appleton Laboratory                       Tel:    +44-1235-445372
Chilton, Didcot, Oxon OX11 0QX, UK                   Fax:    +44-1235-446667
____________________________________________________________________________


From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Mon Nov  9 16:23:48 1998
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Subject: Re: WCS question
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.96.981109202344.6626G-100000 at rlsaxps.bnsc.rl.ac.uk> from Patrick Wallace at "Nov 9, 98 08:31:54 pm"
To: ptw at star.rl.ac.uk (Patrick Wallace)
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 16:07:01 -0500 (EST)
Cc: dmink at cfa.harvard.edu, fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
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Patrick Wallace wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Arnold Rots wrote:
> 
> > Be careful!  There are three elements to the definition of a reference
> > frame: the epoch (2000), J or B, and the reference frame itself (FK5,
> > ICRS).
> 
> No longer true for ICRF.
> 
> > However, "J2000" does not imply FK5 (as you imply above).
> 
> Maybe not, strictly speaking, but in practice "J2000" is always taken
> to mean "in accordance with the IAU 1976 recommendations", which, as
> well as introducing J2000 as the fundamental epoch, brought in a
> specific precession model (Lieske's) and frame (FK5).
> 
> > Instead, the IAU recommendation is to move from J2000-FK5 to J2000-ICRS.
> 
> The J2000 is superfluous in the case of ICRS.  You only need epochs
> when the system depends on a model of precession.  ICRS has no ecliptic
> or equinox.  It is fixed for all time in the extragalactic background,
> liberated from considerations of the Earth's orientation or orbit.  If
> you wrote J2050-ICRS it wouldn't mean anything.

Yep, I spoke too hastily.  However, in practice (for observing), one
may want to precess the ICRS position to a different epoch.  Doesn't
it then become an ICRS position at epoch 1998.85?

  - Arnold

> 
> 
> Patrick Wallace
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> Starlink Project Manager                        Internet:  ptw at star.rl.ac.uk
> Rutherford Appleton Laboratory                       Tel:    +44-1235-445372
> Chilton, Didcot, Oxon OX11 0QX, UK                   Fax:    +44-1235-446667
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> 
> 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Arnold H. Rots                                         AXAF Science Center
Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory                tel:  +1 617 496 7701
60 Garden Street, MS 81                              fax:  +1 617 495 7356
Cambridge, MA 02138                             arots at head-cfa.harvard.edu
USA                                     http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~arots/
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Mon Nov  9 22:12:30 1998
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Subject: Re: WCS question
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On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Arnold Rots wrote:

> ...However, in practice (for observing), one
> may want to precess the ICRS position to a different epoch.  Doesn't
> it then become an ICRS position at epoch 1998.85?

Proper motion apart, an "ICRS position at epoch 1998.85" is precisely the
same as an ICRS position at any other epoch, because the ICRS-defined
axes don't move.  There is no such thing as mean place any more.

Putting it another way, precession isn't involved until you want to
point a telescope.  Even then, in the new deal there is never any reason
to apply precession alone;  only the orientation of the Earth matters, and
the artificial separation into secular/long-period terms (precession) and
short-period terms (nutation) is avoided except perhaps as a computing
convenience.

Patrick Wallace
____________________________________________________________________________
Starlink Project Manager                        Internet:  ptw at star.rl.ac.uk
Rutherford Appleton Laboratory                       Tel:    +44-1235-445372
Chilton, Didcot, Oxon OX11 0QX, UK                   Fax:    +44-1235-446667
____________________________________________________________________________




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Patrick Wallace wrote:
> 
> Putting it another way, precession isn't involved until you want to
> point a telescope.  Even then, in the new deal there is never any reason
> to apply precession alone;  only the orientation of the Earth matters, and
> the artificial separation into secular/long-period terms (precession) and
> short-period terms (nutation) is avoided except perhaps as a computing
> convenience.

So if all we want to know is the position of an object in the image in
the
coordinate system of the reference stars, the only reasons to worry
about
the date of the observation are proper motion and conversion to another,
time-dependent coordinate system, such as FK4 or FK5?

-Doug

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Mon Nov  9 22:13:27 1998
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On Mon, 9 Nov 1998, Doug Mink wrote:

> So if all we want to know is the position of an object in the image in
> the coordinate system of the reference stars, the only reasons to worry
> about the date of the observation are proper motion and conversion to
> another, time-dependent coordinate system, such as FK4 or FK5?

Affirmative.

Patrick Wallace
____________________________________________________________________________
Starlink Project Manager                        Internet:  ptw at star.rl.ac.uk
Rutherford Appleton Laboratory                       Tel:    +44-1235-445372
Chilton, Didcot, Oxon OX11 0QX, UK                   Fax:    +44-1235-446667
____________________________________________________________________________



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.                     **** CFITSIO v2.0 Release ****

The full (not beta) v2.0 version of the CFITSIO library for reading and
writing  FITS files has been officially released and is available at

     http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/fitsio

This release is backward compatible with the previous v1.42 release, and
contains many major new features, including:

1.  CFITSIO can now read IRAF format image files (.imh files) as well as
    FITS files. Thus, any program that uses CFITSIO to do image analysis
    of FITS images will be able to directly read IRAF images as well.

2.  Any FITS file on the internet can be directly accessed by providing the
    full FTP or HTTP URL to CFITSIO's open_file routine.

3.  Input FITS files can be filtered or modified at run-time based on a
    user-supplied expression that is appended to the name of the input file. 
    This allows users, at run time, to:

  a) select a subset of the rows in a table which satisfy an 
     arbitrarily complex boolean expression

  b) create new table columns whose values are calculated 
     as a function of other columns and/or keywords in the table

  c) create a virtual FITS image by binning/histogramming
     the values in one or more table columns.  This is most often 
     used to create an image by binning a list of X and Y coordinates
     for each event in a table.

   These file filtering routines use new extremely fast, state-of-the-art
   algorithms. Effective file I/O throughput rates of 5 - 10 MB/s are
   typical on current generation workstations or PCs.

4.  A Fortran-callable interface is provided, so CFITSIO routines may be
    easily called from Fortran programs as well as from C.

5.  The Users Guide has been greatly improved.


Acknowledgements: Many people and institutions have contributed to the 
new features in CFITSIO, including:

Jurek Brokowski, Bruce O'Neel, and Don Jennings at the Integral Science Data
Center (ISDC), in Switzerland designed the concept of plug-in I/O drivers
for CFITSIO 2.0. This greatly simplified the low-level I/O which in turn
made other new features such as support for compressed FITS files and IRAF
image files much easier to implement. They provided the ftp, http, root, and
shared memory file drivers.  They are also responsible for providing the
template file parsing routines and the hierarchical grouping routines.

Uwe Lamers, at XMM/ESA/ESTEC, provided the fast lexical parsing algorithm
that is used by CFITSIO to filter table rows at run time. This algorithm in
effect compiles the expression, so that it does not need to be reinterpreted
for every row of the table. Peter Wilson (RSTX, NASA/GSFC) recoded this 
parsing algorithm  in C and combined it with the CFITSIO iterator
function for even faster throughput. He also added support for all the
FITS datatypes and null values. 

The file filtering and binning syntax used by CFITSIO is modelled on a
similar syntax developed by Jonathan McDowell and collaborators at the AXAF
Science Center. 

Doug Mink (SAO) provided the routines for converting IRAF format images into
FITS format. 
____________________________________________________________________
Dr. William Pence                          pence at tetra.gsfc.nasa.gov
NASA/GSFC Code 662         HEASARC         +1-301-286-4599 (voice)     
Greenbelt MD 20771                         +1-301-286-1684 (fax)

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From: Don Wells <dwells at cv.nrao.edu>
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Subject: ADASS-FITS-BoF annual report (WCS negotiations)
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	   ADASS-FITS-BoF annual report (WCS negotiations)

	      Don Wells [Chair, IAU FITS Working Group]

			      1998-11-13

In recent years the FITS BoF [Birds-of-a-Feather] sessions at ADASS
meetings have been the primary annual face-to-face meeting for the
FITS community, and the agenda of each BoF has acted as an annual
report for FITS. I have prepared this memo as a written version of the
three viewgraphs which I used at the ADASS'98 FITS BoF, held at
Univ. of Illinois late in the afternoon of Monday November 2nd. There
were 30-40 people present in the room.

1. The NASA NOST FITS Standard

A technical panel under the leadership of Bob Hanisch has been working
on this codification of all FITS Agreements through the end of 1997. A
draft version was submitted to the community for review in the spring
of 1998, and 140 comments were received from the worldwide FITS
community. The technical panel has considered each of these comments,
and has decided on responses to them. Bob Hanisch was not able to
attend ADASS'98, so the secretary of the panel, Bill Pence, read
Hanisch's report to the BoF. The panel expects to send out the
responses soon, and to have a new version of the Standard ready for
review within a few months, perhaps within a few weeks. 

The ultimate goal of this effort is to produce a definitive version of
the FITS Standard, a version which will be approved by the three FITS
regional committees and by the IAU FITS Working Group, so that it can
replace the FITS papers.  Don Wells stated that he would like for this
definitive version of the FITS Standard to be published in A&A
Supplement.

2. The FITS Y2K (DATE-OBS) Agreement

This agreement was adopted by the IAU-FWG in November 1997, one year
ago. Don Wells pointed out that full interchange of the new notation
is to begin 1999-01-01, only two months from now. He asked who had
changed code in response to this agreement, and roughly half of those
present raised their hands.

3. IAU Comm5 Task Group [TG] - Designations and OBJECT strings

Don Wells reminded the BoF that the IAU TG on Designations has asked
that the maximum lengths of OBJECT strings in interchange be increased
to at least 26 characters in order to support the IAU standard object
designation syntax. The NOST technical panel has addressed this issue
and has decided that all string values in FITS headers may be up to 68
characters in length, which will solve the technical aspect of this
problem. The real goal is to use object designations which will not be
ambiguous when they appear in archival databases; in particular,
comments about filter choices, weather, etc., should not be appended
to object names in OBJECT strings. Ideally the IAU prefixes and
coordinate syntax will be implemented and used in data acquisition
systems. Wells urged the BoF to 'help stop namespace pollution!'

4. WCS [World Coordinate System] negotiations

Don Wells reminded the BoF that there were a number of WCS issues
outstanding after the ADASS'97 [Sonthofen] BoF, even though
significant progress was made in negotiations during ADASS'97. Some of
the differences of opinion had prevented conclusion of negotiations
for several years. Wells reported that in March 1998 he had created a
small ad hoc task group [TG] to work on the outstanding technical
issues. This TG was expanded to about 15 people in July 1998, and much
progress was made, with the result that Wells reported to the BoF that
a working consensus now exists. The final major steps of the
negotiations occurred during the 24 hours preceding the ADASS'98 BoF.
The WCS Agreement which the TG is producing will be the most complex
FITS agreement to date; we have been negotiating it for more than a
decade.  The items below are not the complete agreement, but only the
set of important features which were discussed at the BoF.

a) Split G&C into two papers

The TG will recommend that the Greisen & Calabretta draft WCS paper be
split into two papers. The first paper will have a title something
like 'Generalized Representations of World Coordinate Systems in
FITS', and will specify meta-rules for FITS WCS conventions. The
second paper will specify the WCS conventions for celestial
coordinates. The meta-rules are needed because the TG expects that
eventually there will be a third paper for the spectroscopic case and
maybe another paper on time axes.

b) Linear transformation to use CDi_j keywords

The TG will recommend that the IRAF CDi_j rotation matrix keywords be
adopted instead of the PCiiijjj keywords which were suggested in
previous drafts of the Greisen & Calabretta paper.  This means that
CDELTi and CROTAi will not be used. It also means that the WCS
agreement will have backwards compatibility with several existing data
archives.

c) Multiple-WCS support

The TG will recommend that optional additional sets of WCS keywords in
FITS headers be distinguished from the default set of WCS keywords and
from each other by appending a single alphabetic character [A-Z] to
all of the WCS keywords. Examples of such keywords could be CRPIX1B,
CD2_1C, CRVAL3D and CTYPE2A. Note that the default set of WCS keywords
in these cases would still be CRPIX1, CD2_1, CRVAL3 and CTYPE2.
Datasystems which do not support the multiple WCS notation will need
to regard WCS keywords with trailing non-numeric characters as
unrecognized keywords. Discussion of this idea during the BoF
exposed new examples of usage which added to the cases which have
convinced the TG that multiple-WCS capability will be valuable.

The optional appended version code character will restrict the basic
WCS keywords to seven characters. Therefore, the TG will recommend
that WCS axis numbers be in the range 1-99 (i.e., axes 100-999 will
not be supported).

d) New distorted-projection capability to be added

The TG will recommend that a set of distortion terms analogous to
those used in the DSS [Digital Sky Survey] be added to the basic TAN
and ARC projections in order to support a variety of optical imaging
systems which produce distorted geometries without requiring
re-gridding of the vast quantities of data being produced. The goal is
to agree on a set of terms which will represent the geometric
distortions of all existing optical cameras.

The set will include radial terms, analogous to those in the 'ZPN'
projection described in the Greisen & Calabretta draft. The majority
of imaging systems will be supported by these radial terms. (The
'radial' terms used in the DSS are X(X^2+Y^2), Y(X^2+Y^2), X(X^2+Y^2)^2
and Y(X^2+Y^2)^2; these implement an elliptically-symmetric radial
distortion.)

The non-radial terms, such as XY^2 and X^2Y, will be particularly
useful for re-imaging cameras like HST's WFPC-1 and WFPC-2.  Several
TG members believe that such cameras have two 'center-points' for
their axes, the tangent point of the main telescope and the centers of
the field-flattening lenses of the individual cameras; probably two
keywords will be defined to specify a center point offset for the
polynomial terms (the main telescope's TAN geometry center point will
be specified by CRPIXi). Several TG members intend to collect
information about existing re-imaging cameras to verify this
conjecture.

Work is going on to formulate models that describe the small
systematic distortions seen in Schmidt astrometry, relative to the ARC
projection, and this important special case may justify explicit
support in the FITS standard.  Whether or not the TG recommends that
terms for such models be added to the set of distortion terms, some
version of the pixel correction images described in Appendix A of the
Greisen & Calabretta draft will probably still be specified to
describe the residual random distortion field for the highest
precision, widest field applications. The TG expects that most optical
cameras will be represented satisfactorily by the polynomial terms
alone.

The TG will recommend that all WCS parameter values be conveyed by
keywords PVi_k (PVk_i?), where i is the index of the parameter and k is the
index of the axis. This notation will replace the PROJPi keywords
suggested in the Greisen & Calabretta draft.

The axis index for WCS keywords will be restricted to 99 or less; note
that if the axis index k is 9 or less (the usual case), the parameter
index i in PVi_k may range up to 999 without exceeding the seven
character limit set by the plan to use an optional appended character
for multiple-WCS support.

e) WCS discussions and  decisions during the BoF session

Don Wells encouraged discussion of items (a), (b), (c) and (d). In the
course of the discussion, it became clear that items (a), (b) and (c)
had firm support from those present at the BoF. The following issues
were discussed:

- Wells asked whether the distortion projection should be given some
  new name to distinguish it from TAN and/or ARC; some TG members have
  worried that the complicated polynomial would confuse newcomers to
  FITS WCS who need to know that the TAN projection is appropriate for
  most optical imagery. It became clear that there was a consensus
  favoring adding the new terms to both the TAN and the ARC
  projections rather than creating a new projection. Although the
  leading radial term of the polynomial is sufficient to represent the
  difference between TAN and ARC (the DSS uses TAN rather than ARC, as
  you would expect for a Schmidt camera!), maintaining the distinction
  has a tutorial advantage.

- A number of people at the BoF argued that the order of the indices
  in the PV keyword should be swapped, to PVk_i; presumably the TG
  will consider this modification.

- Wells raised the issue of whether all parameters of a projection
  should be restricted to the 'Dec-like' axis (as it was with CROTAk),
  or alternatively should be associated in some agreed-upon fashion
  with both axes of a celestial projection. Some TG members have
  preferred to retain the former convention, but there was a clear
  consensus at the BoF that parameters should be associated with both
  axes. This convention will have the advantage that analogous
  polynomial terms associated with the two axes will have the same
  indices (one of the drafts considered by the TG had the indices of
  the second axis offset by 20).

- Doug Tody suggested that axis_k=0 be used for specifing general
  parameters that apply to the entire WCS of a multi-WCS group; the TG
  will need to consider the implications of this detail of the rules.

- Tody also raised the issue of whether the datatype of a PV keyword
  should be restricted to numerical, or defined by the WCS function
  type to which the parameter is assigned (this case is unusual in
  that the PV keywords are not fully defined, rather their usage is
  defined by each WCS).

- Some people at the BoF regretted the demise of CROTAi and,
  especially, CDELTi, since they are so easy to use and feature in
  many existing files. They are suggesting that CDELTi and CROTAi
  could function as functional synonyms of CDi_j. (WCS reading code
  will have to support CDELTi and CROTAi forever because there are
  many existing files that use these keywords.  The question is
  whether they are to be "deprecated" or will be recognized as
  "official synonyms".)

Upon a motion by Doug Mink, an informal vote was taken to express
general support for the work of the TG as described above, and the
show of hands in support was unanimous. At this point in the session
Don Wells told Eric Greisen that he and Mark Calabretta now had the
working consensus which they had specified as a precondition before
undertaking the next round of revision of the WCS draft paper.

f) WCStools paper in ADASS'98 session

Paper T6.2 ('WCSTools: an Image Astrometry Toolkit') was presented by
Doug Mink in the afternoon session on Tuesday, the day after the FITS
BoF session. The final sentence of the abstract is: 'The proposed FITS
WCS standard is being tracked, and interim formats are being
supported.' During the questions after Doug Mink spoke, Don Wells
exhorted the community to include proper WCS notations in the headers
of all optical imagery. Mink's WCSTools software is available at:
http://tdc-www.harvard.edu/software/wcstools/.

g) New members for the WCS TG?

Don Wells told the BoF that he is prepared to add new members to the
ad hoc WCS task group, but that such people should understand that
they are expected to contribute to the solutions to FITS WCS
problems. Wells is especially interested in adding people with
knowledge of the geometry of re-imaging cameras, or of Schmidt camera
geometry or general knowledge of precision astrometry, in order to
complete the design of the distortion correction terms for the TAN and
ARC projections.

5. Another Issue discussed at the BoF

One person (the Chair does not recall who it was) reported having
encountered a FITS tape which was not blocked in accordance with the
FITS Blocking Agreement (Section 4.6 in the NOST 100-1.2 [1998-04-02]
version of the FITS Standards). The people present at the BoF deplored
this, of course.

 [NOTE: the text of this report has been reviewed by the WCS TG, and
    corrections/additions suggested by TG members have been made.]

-- 
  Donald C. Wells         Associate Scientist         dwells at nrao.edu
                    http://www.cv.nrao.edu/~dwells
  National Radio Astronomy Observatory                +1-804-296-0277
  520 Edgemont Road,   Charlottesville, Virginia       22903-2475 USA

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Fri Nov 13 21:48:34 1998
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Date: Fri, 13 Nov 1998 16:34:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Walton <swalton at galileo.csun.edu>
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Subject: Re: ADASS-FITS-BoF annual report (WCS negotiations)
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I am really pleased to read that so much progress was made on the WCS
problem at the BOF meeting.  I want to sit down and read Don's report in
more detail and digest everything before commenting any further, but it is
clear the WCS TG worked hard at reaching a consensus.  They are to be
commended.

--
Stephen Walton, Professor of Physics and Astronomy,
California State University, Northridge
stephen.walton at csun.edu

From owner-fitsbits at kochab.cv.nrao.edu  Thu Nov 19 00:53:46 1998
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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: 18 Nov 98 19:25:46 GMT
From: rpete at ascda3.harvard.edu (Pete Ratzlaff)
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Organization: Harvard University
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Subject: CFITSIO.pm - a new Perl module
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I have put together an initial release of something I started working on
a couple of weeks ago: A module for using William Pence's CFITSIO subroutine
library.

Virtually all functions are available, and for the most part
work. There are some small glitches with unkown causes on
different architectures. The most serious problem thus far is
that fits_open_file() causes a segfault on Solaris 2.5, Perl 5.004.
This makes the module essentially unusable for that combination,
and is completely dumbfounding since the xsub for fits_open_file()
is simple and straightforward.

Anyhow, I have numbered this release 0.10, but consider it much
further along than that number would indicate. Aside from a handful
of problems, in fact, I would consider it mostly finished.

Some features:

*   Over 300 CFITSIO library routines available

*   Automatic conversion from Perl <-> C datatypes

*   If given scalar reference as input data, uses the data in the
    scalar rather than unpacking it. This is mostly for PDL and
    the use of its get_dataref() method.

*   Routines which read FITS files default to having the ouptut data
    packed into N-dimensional Perl arrays. This can be changed with
    a state-controlling function - PerlyUnpacking() - to reading data
    into a form compatible with PDL (i.e, scalars).

*   Thanks to Karl Glazebrook for his PGPLOT module, which gave me a
    place to begin and a bunch of ideas and code to steal.

Okay, if you want to give it a shot, try
    http://hea-www.harvard.edu/~rpete/cfitsio

For more information on the CFITSIO library, see
    http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/software/fitsio/fitsio.html


-Pete Ratzlaff <pratzlaff at cfa.harvard.edu>

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Date: Tue, 24 Nov 1998 16:17:54 -0500
From: William Pence <pence at tetra.gsfc.nasa.gov>
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Subject: fv FITS file viewer and editor release
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FV 2.4 Release Announcement
                         November 24, 1998

Version 2.4 of the fv software tool for viewing and editing any FITS
format image or table is now available.  Fv has a graphical user
interface written using Tcl/Tk.  The Fv software distribution ships with
everything you need to build (i.e. you do not need Tcl/Tk already 
installed on your machine).  Fv has the following features (items
marked with a * are new with this release):

  *- fv runs under Windows 95/98/NT.

  *- Files can be opened (read-only) across the internet (http and ftp
     protocols). FTP sites can be browsed from the "Open File" dialog
     box. This feature is currently only available on Unix platforms.

  *- Filename completion eases browsing large directories and typing
     long names... type the first few letters of a filename and then
     hit TAB.

  *- Basic fv functions -- open, display, and plot data -- can be
     accessed from simple TCL scripts. 

   - A summary window lists the contents and size of all the
     extensions in the FITS file.

   - Entire extensions can be copied, cut, and pasted to/from the
     clipboard which can be saved to a new FITS file. 

  *- New, empty FITS files can be created. Empty extensions of any of
     the 3 basic types -- image, ASCII table, and binary table -- can
     be appended to existing files.

   - FITS headers may be displayed in a scrolling text window.  
     Keywords may be edited, inserted, or deleted, and an ASCII
     text listing of the header may be generated.

  *- Checksum keywords can be created or updated when a file is
     modified.

   - Selected columns in a FITS table may be viewed in a scrolling spread
     sheet.  The values in the table may be edited, and rows and columns
     may be inserted or deleted in the table.  The contents of the table
     may be saved to an ASCII text file.

  *- Keyboard shortcuts (ctrl-c and ctrl-v) simplify the copying and
     pasting of data between cells.

   - Tables can be sorted using multiple keys.
     
   - When sorting, rows with identical keys may be optionally deleted.

   - Table rows can be selectively deleted using a boolean expression
     evaluated for each row.

   - A spreadsheet calculator function allows you to create new columns
     by performing arithmetic on existing columns.

   - Line plots of one or more columns in a table may be generated.  
     Plots are displayed using the POW widget.  The user may then zoom 
     in on any area of interest in the plot. The plots may be saved and
     printed in postscript format.

   - Individual columns or pairs of columns can be used to produce 1D or
     2D histograms, respectively, and plotted in POW.

   - FITS images may be displayed with the usual pan, zoom, and color
     table manipulation facilities.  Users may choose to use the SAOtng
     image display tool (available separately from SAO), or the
     internal image display widget called POW that is supplied with fv.

  *- Double clicking an image displayed by POW will bring up a fv
     table of the image data with the clicked pixel highlighted.

   - Selected rows or columns of an image can be averaged and their
     pixels plotted in a line graph.


Items specific to the POW display widget...

   - POW supports interactive manipulation of the image colortable (i.e.
     contrast and bias twiddling).  

   - POW supports TrueColor displays and has more "colormap friendly"
     support for PsuedoColor display.  See the documentation for
     the "-cmap" fv command line switch or the POW "Color" help menu
     item for details.

  *- POW interprets standard FITS World Coordinate System (WCS) keywords,
     and optionally displays grid lines. (Version 2.4 adds WCS support for
     curves.)

   - Once displayed in POW, the contents of graphs can be edited and
     multiple graphs can be merged into one. Coordinate information
     (labels, pixel sizes, WCS parameters, etc) can be modified as well. 

  *- Graphs (including those containing images) can be arbitrarily resized.
     Previous versions only supported integral zoom levels.

  *- Multiple images can be mosaiced within a single graph. The only
     restriction is that the images have identical rotations.

  *- Each curve plotted in a graph can be displayed in a number of
     line styles/widths, point shapes/sizes, and colors. A single
     dialog box controls both the graph-level features (labels,
     contents, etc) and the display styles of each of a graph's
     curves.

   - POW can create, read, write, and graphically manipulate regions
     (boxes, circles, ellipses, polygons, lines, and points). (Data
     analysis of regions will be added in a later version.) 

   - POW can "blink" a set of images or graphs in rapid sequence. A 3D
     image cube can be animated in this manner. 

  *- POW can create contour maps of images.


Fv currently runs on many Unix platforms, including SUN O/S, SUN
Solaris, Dec OSF, and Linux PCs. With this release binaries for
Windows PCs are also available.  We plan to port fv to run under Mac
OS in the coming year.

Fv may be obtained from the HEASARC (High Energy Astrophysics Science
Archive Research Center) FTOOLS Web site at:

         http://heasarc.gsfc.nasa.gov/ftools/fv.html

See the INSTALL file in the fv distribution for instructions on installing
and running fv. Any comments or suggestions about fv should be sent to
ftoolshelp at athena.gsfc.nasa.gov.

--------
The fv development team currently consists of:

    William Pence:  Project Scientist, author of CFITSIO
    Lawrence Brown: Tcl/Tk programmer, original author of POW
    Peter Wilson:   Tcl/Tk programmer, fv/POW programmer        

fv and fitsTcl were originally written by Jianjun Xu.

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To: fitsbits at fits.cv.nrao.edu
Date: Sat, 28 Nov 1998 00:50:50 GMT
From: dmunro at sfu.ca (Duncan Munro)
Message-ID: <365f4583.13178979 at newsserver.sfu.ca>
Organization: Simon Fraser University
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References: <363cf8c8.12998934 at newsserver.sfu.ca>
Subject: new port of fitsblink 2.11 for OS/2
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Archive Filename:  fblink2.zip , replaces fblink.zip

Short Description: OS/2 port of Fitsblink 2.11

I have ported Fitsblink 2.11 to Xfree86-OS/2. It is an Fits image
viewer and astrometry program. It can pattern-match a fits image with
theHubble GSC to determine the precise location of the image. It also
has an interface for Telescope and CCD camera control, but this is
untested.  fblink2.zip has a cleaned up archive and was built with
different compiler options than fblink.zip

I have uploaded fitsblink as fblink2.zip to hobbes.nmsu.edu. it is now
in the incoming directory and the proposed placement is:  

/pub/os2/apps/astro:

It also requires Xforms.88  from :

http://borneo.gmd.de/~veit/os2/xf86ported.html

and CFitsio142.zip from:

ftp://legacy.gsfc.nasa.gov/software/fitsio/c/

The above 2 files are required to compile fitsblink but the exe should
work fine with out them. If this is a problem for anyone I can
upload the compiled versions of these 2 files to hobbes as well.

thanks

Duncan Munro
dmunro at sfu.ca       
  

