From dilg@ulabsgi Sat Jan 15 13:38:17 1994
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	["1465" "" "14" "January" "1994" "16:05:29" "GMT" "Doug Ilg" "dilg@ulabsgi" "<2h6fs9$71s@obelix.tsg.com>" "36" "Re: info on iso-8211" "^From:" nil nil "1" "1994011416:05:29" "info on iso-8211" (number " " mark "     Doug Ilg          Jan 14   36/1465  " thread-indent "\"Re: info on iso-8211\"\n") "<zzt-140194084221@zztmacii.ssd.ornl.gov>"]
	nil)
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From: dilg@ulabsgi (Doug Ilg)
Subject: Re: info on iso-8211
Date: 14 Jan 1994 16:05:29 GMT

Jon Tischler (zzt@ornl.gov) wrote:

	<other included messages deleted>

: My question is: is any body using this?  And in particular are there any
: implementations out there (for both reading and writing).  

: I am especially interesed in what has been done in the way of allowing
: automatic display of data.  By this I mean that you tell your graphing
: program to read the data file, and it automatically puts up the graph that
: you had in mind when you took the data.  After all when you took the data,
: you knew what you wanted plotted, and what the axis labels should be, and
: other things like that.

: Jon Tischler     Solid State Division
: ORNLinternet     zzt@ornl.gov

I know of at least one group that is using ISO-8211.  There is a file format
called SDTS (Spatial Data Transfer Standard) developed by the US Geological
Survey and approved as a FIPS (Federal Information Processing Standard) by
NIST.  Sometime early this year, SDTS will become a mandatory standard for
all Federal agencies, where feasible.  (Now there's some government jargon
for you!! :-)

Anyway, part of the SDTS spec says something the the effect that ISO-8211
shall be used as a data encoding language for SDTS data.  I can't quote it
exactly, but it's something like that.

You can get info about SDTS on an anon FTP server at sdts.er.usgs.gov
You can contact the developers at sdts@usgs.gov

Hope this helps.

			-Doug Ilg
			 Hughes STX
			 Goddard Space Flight Center

From acooper@nuustak.csir.co.za Sun Jan 16 19:04:02 1994
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	["1737" "" "16" "January" "1994" "20:26:22" "+0200" "Antony Cooper" "acooper@nuustak.csir.co.za" "<2hc0seINN5ft@nuustak.csir.co.za>" "35" "Re: info on iso-8211" "^From:" nil nil "1" "1994011618:26:22" "info on iso-8211" (number " " mark "     Antony Cooper     Jan 16   35/1737  " thread-indent "\"Re: info on iso-8211\"\n") "<2h6fs9$71s@obelix.tsg.com>"]
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NNTP-Posting-Host: nuustak.csir.co.za
From: acooper@nuustak.csir.co.za (Antony Cooper)
Subject: Re: info on iso-8211
Date: 16 Jan 1994 20:26:22 +0200

dilg@ulabsgi (Doug Ilg) writes:

>I know of at least one group that is using ISO-8211.  There is a file format
>called SDTS (Spatial Data Transfer Standard) developed by the US Geological
>Survey and approved as a FIPS (Federal Information Processing Standard) by
>NIST.  Sometime early this year, SDTS will become a mandatory standard for
>all Federal agencies, where feasible.  (Now there's some government jargon
>for you!! :-)

SDTS becomes mandatory as from 15 February 1994, as far as I can recall. 

>Anyway, part of the SDTS spec says something the the effect that ISO-8211
>shall be used as a data encoding language for SDTS data.  I can't quote it
>exactly, but it's something like that.

Following the US lead, other countries have been looking at using ISO 8211
as the basic mechanism for their standards for the exchange of digital
geo-referenced information. Personally, I think that ISO 8211 adds an
unnecessary layer of extra complexity to such standards which are inherently
complex to start with, but then I am biased, as I have been involved in the
development of the South African standard, and we have no plans to use
ISO 8211 at this stage!  :-)

>You can get info about SDTS on an anon FTP server at sdts.er.usgs.gov
>You can contact the developers at sdts@usgs.gov

There is quite a bit of documentation and even software available from
this site, some of which deals with ISO 8211 specifically. As far as I
know, ISO 8211 is due to be reviewed round about now, as well.

Antony
--
Antony Cooper  --  Internet: acooper@nuustak.csir.co.za       (25 45S  28 16E)
     CSIR Information Services, PO Box 395, Pretoria, 0001, South Africa
Voice: +27 12 8414121  $ Fax: +27 12 8413037  $ Page: (012) 3417607 code 32091

From unrza3@cd4680fs.rrze.uni-erlangen.de Fri Jan 21 21:19:38 1994
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	["574" "Wed" "12" "January" "1994" "10:00:08" "+0100" "Markus Kuhn" "unrza3@cd4680fs.rrze.uni-erlangen.de" "<2h0e6oEaqa@uni-erlangen.de>" "16" "Re: info on iso-8211" "^From:" nil nil "1" "1994011209:00:08" "info on iso-8211" (number " " mark "     Markus Kuhn       Jan 12   16/574   " thread-indent "\"Re: info on iso-8211\"\n") "<1994Jan11.104735.18187@mnemosyne.cs.du.edu>"]
	nil)
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From: unrza3@cd4680fs.rrze.uni-erlangen.de (Markus Kuhn)
Subject: Re: info on iso-8211
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 10:00:08 +0100

cverond@nyx.cs.du.edu (Cristiano Verondini) writes:

>I'm searching any sort of documentation on the standard
>iso-8211.
>Does anyone know if there is any information available in internet?

No, because ISO standards are copyrighted and very expensive. But
you might want to have a look at ftp.informatik.uni-erlangen.de
in pub/doc/ISO/std-faq for general information about ISO standards and
how to get them.

Markus

-- 
Markus Kuhn, Computer Science student «°o°» University of Erlangen, Germany
Internet: mskuhn@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de   |   X.500 entry available

From unrza3@cd4680fs.rrze.uni-erlangen.de Fri Jan 21 21:19:51 1994
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	nil)
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From: unrza3@cd4680fs.rrze.uni-erlangen.de (Markus Kuhn)
Subject: Re: info on iso-8211
Date: Wed, 12 Jan 1994 10:00:08 +0100

cverond@nyx.cs.du.edu (Cristiano Verondini) writes:

>I'm searching any sort of documentation on the standard
>iso-8211.
>Does anyone know if there is any information available in internet?

No, because ISO standards are copyrighted and very expensive. But
you might want to have a look at ftp.informatik.uni-erlangen.de
in pub/doc/ISO/std-faq for general information about ISO standards and
how to get them.

Markus

-- 
Markus Kuhn, Computer Science student «°o°» University of Erlangen, Germany
Internet: mskuhn@cip.informatik.uni-erlangen.de   |   X.500 entry available

From jra@wolf.brl.mil Sun Jan 23 12:11:51 1994
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	["869" "" "21" "January" "1994" "18:13:43" "GMT" "John R. Anderson" "jra@wolf.brl.mil" "<20939@smoke.brl.mil>" "25" "Re: info on iso-10303 (STEP) ?" "^From:" nil nil "1" "1994012118:13:43" "info on iso-10303 (STEP) ?" (number " " mark "     John R. Anderson  Jan 21   25/869   " thread-indent "\"Re: info on iso-10303 (STEP) ?\"\n") "<JOERN.94Jan21154636@nazgul.sima.sintef.no>"]
	nil)
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Organization: US Army Research Laboratory
Lines: 25
From: jra@wolf.brl.mil (John R. Anderson (VMB) <jra>)
Sender: news@smoke.brl.mil
Subject: Re: info on iso-10303 (STEP) ?
Date: 21 Jan 94 18:13:43 GMT

In article <JOERN.94Jan21154636@nazgul.sima.sintef.no>, joern@sima.sintef.no (Jorn Amundsen) writes:
|> 
|> Hi Netlanders!
|> 
|> After the great success Cristiano Verondini had on is query on
|> iso-8211 i would like to ask you netlanders for any internet
|> retreivable info on the iso-10303 Industrial Automation Systems,
|> Product Data Representation and Exchange (STandard for the Exchange of
|> Product data - STEP).
|> 
|> Thank you --joern


	anonymous ftp from ftp.cme.nist.gov in directory pub/step

		or

	send email to nptserver@cme.nist.gov with the single word "help"
	in the body of the message. This will get you started.

-- 
John R. Anderson
Attn: AMSRL-SL-BV                               Internet: jra@brl.mil
U.S. Army Research Laboratory                   Phone: (410) 278-7267
Aberdeen Proving Ground, MD  21005-5068         FAX: (410) 278-5058

From warnock@Hypatia.gsfc.nasa.gov Tue Jan 25 11:02:51 1994
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	["1220" "" "25" "January" "1994" "05:09:53" "GMT" "Archie Warnock" "warnock@hypatia.gsfc.nasa.gov" "<warnock.759474593@Hypatia>" "23" "Re: ODL (Object Decsription Language): what is the current version?" "^From:" nil nil "1" "1994012505:09:53" "ODL (Object Decsription Language): what is the current version?" (number " " mark "     Archie Warnock    Jan 25   23/1220  " thread-indent "\"Re: ODL (Object Decsription Language): what is the current version?\"\n") "<2i0q9c$asl@skates.gsfc.nasa.gov>"]
	nil)
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From: warnock@Hypatia.gsfc.nasa.gov (Archie Warnock)
Subject: Re: ODL (Object Decsription Language): what is the current version?
Date: 25 Jan 94 05:09:53 GMT

ryan@odouls.gsfc.nasa.gov (Pat Ryan) writes:
>	My group has been using the Object Description Language (ODL) for
>organizing data.  We're currently using version 2.1 (March 1991).  The
>format appears to have originated at the University of Colorado.  However,

ODL was originally written (if I recall correctly) as part of the
metadata specification for the Planetary Data System.  Randy Davis at
LASP at Colorado was the principal author.  He's still there - I don't
exactly recall his e-mail, but I can check.  I think it's
davis@aries.colorado.edu.  You could also ask Mike Martin at JPL
(mmartin@jplpds.jpl.nasa.gov) for info - he was also heavily involved
>from the PDS end.  I'm not sure, however, that there's any newer
information on ODL itself - more work has been done on the PDS
implementation of it.

It's a very powerful syntax for describing data, and I don't think it's
ever been fully exploited.  Randy's a smart guy...

--
_______________________________________________________________________
-- Archie Warnock              Internet:  Archie.Warnock@gsfc.nasa.gov
-- Hughes STX                  "WAIS is the engine, WWW is the track"
-- NASA/GSFC                   Project STELAR: WAIS to do science

From thompson@serts.gsfc.nasa.gov Wed Jan 26 17:28:20 1994
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	["1485" "" "26" "January" "1994" "15:22:04" "GMT" "William Thompson" "thompson@serts.gsfc.nasa.gov" "<thompson.759597724@serts.gsfc.nasa.gov>" "38" "Re: Scientific Data Format Information FAQ" "^From:" nil nil "1" "1994012615:22:04" "Scientific Data Format Information FAQ" (number " " mark "     William Thompson  Jan 26   38/1485  " thread-indent "\"Re: Scientific Data Format Information FAQ\"\n") "<2i5m06$sqk@ncar.ucar.edu>"]
	nil)
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From: thompson@serts.gsfc.nasa.gov (William Thompson)
Subject: Re: Scientific Data Format Information FAQ
Date: 26 Jan 94 15:22:04 GMT

ilana@kiowa.scd.ucar.edu (Ilana Stern) writes:

>7. PDS

>  In recent years, the Planetary Data System (PDS) has been responsible
>for archiving space mission data on CD-ROM media, using its own self-
>describing data format, variously know as PDS, SFDU (Standard Formatted
                                                ^^^^
>Data Unit), or ODL (Object Description Language).  ...

This is an error--the term SFDU or Standard Formatted Data Unit does not refer
to PDS/ODL files.  Instead, the SFDU mechanism is a way of associating with a
data file a label that serves as a pointer to a description of the file format.
As such, a PDS/ODL file can qualify as an SFDU, but so could files in FITS,
CDF, etc., or even in mission-specific file formats, so long as the format
description is registered.

(I like to think of SFDUs as a "Dewey decimal system" for data files.  :^) )

Information on SFDUs can be obtained from

	CCSDS Secretariat
	Communications and Data Systems Division, (Code-OS)
	National Aeronautics and Space Administration
	Washington, DC 20546, USA

I would like to see information on SFDUs included in the FAQ, but am not
qualified to write it myself.  You might try contacting Don Sawyer at

	NSSDCA::SAWYER
or
	sawyer@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov

to see if anyone in his office would be interested in contributing something
about SFDUs for the FAQ.  I myself would be really happy if some of the SFDU
documentation was available online in WWW/HTML format.

Bill Thompson

From thompson@serts.gsfc.nasa.gov Wed Jan 26 23:58:37 1994
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	["4319" "" "26" "January" "1994" "22:17:52" "GMT" "William Thompson" "thompson@serts.gsfc.nasa.gov" "<thompson.759622672@serts.gsfc.nasa.gov>" "97" "Re: FITS header cards" "^From:" nil nil "1" "1994012622:17:52" "FITS header cards" (number " " mark "     William Thompson  Jan 26   97/4319  " thread-indent "\"Re: FITS header cards\"\n") nil]
	nil)
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From: thompson@serts.gsfc.nasa.gov (William Thompson)
Subject: Re: FITS header cards
Date: 26 Jan 94 22:17:52 GMT

> In article <2hjl8k$sl4@organpipe.uug.arizona.edu>, ron@argus.lpl.Arizona.EDU
(Ron Watkins) wrote...

> >I was wondering if there is support for using CRVAL and CRDELT within
> >FITS tables? We have a data format that im looking into formatting into
> >a FITS table. Each record (of our data) contains various values and an
> >array. The values are of differing formats but the array is fixed at 126
> >single precision values representing counts at some wavelength. I had
> >wanted to use CRPIX, CRVAL, and CRDELT to specify the wavelengths for the
> >array but it doesn't apply to any of the other values in the table row other
> >than the array. Is there FITS support for doing this? I can only find
> >references for CRVAL and such in the primary HDU of the FITS files. I couldn't
> >find it for the FITS extensions. 

and then Barry Schlesinger wrote

> The above does not specify whether an ASCII table or a binary table is
> intended.  The proposed structure appears to fit most naturally in an
> extension of type BINTABLE, where the array could appear as a single
> field.  There has been some talk, particularly within the single dish
> community, of conventions for use of the terms CRVALn, CRPIXn and
> CDELTn to describe an array contained in one field of a binary table. 
> Perhaps one of the people involved could step forward and say where
> this discussion stands. 

Being one of those people, I am now stepping forward.

(Sorry this took a while.  You might have heard about the ice storm that
paralyzed the D.C. area last week, and I've been busy catching up this week.)

There have been a couple of proposals as to how to handle axis metadata.  My
own proposal is to define a set of keywords related to the table columns that
are related to CRPIX, CRVAL, etc., but which have a format ala TDIM.  These
keywords are as follows:

		  Additional Keyword	  Standard Equivalent

			TDESCn			CTYPEm
			TROTAn			CROTAm
			TRPIXn			CRPIXm
			TRVALn			CRVALm
			TDELTn			CDELTm

To illustrate how this would work, suppose that one had a two-dimensional
array, with dimensions representing energy and time, stored in a column of a
FITS binary table.  First of all, we would have the following standard
keywords:

	TTYPE2  = 'RATE    '		/Observed flux count rate
	TFORM2  = '80E     '		/Array has 80 data values, type Real*4
	TUNIT2  = 'counts/s'		/Units of the RATE values
	TDIM2   = '(8,10)  '		/Array is two-dimensional

In my system, the annotation for the individual dimensions are modelled
after the form of TDIM, and would appear in the FITS binary table header
this way:

	TDESC2  = '(ENERGY,TIME)'	/Dimension labels
	TRPIX2  = '(1.0,1.0)'		/Index of reference pixel
	TRVAL2  = '(2.5,0.0)'		/Axis values at reference pixel
	TDELT2  = '(0.1,4.0)'		/Pixel spacings along each axis

However, in the time since I proposed this, the High Energy Astrophysics group
at Goddard (HEASARC) has come up with an alternate plan to do the same thing.
In the HEASARC system, the same information would appear as follows:

	1CTYP2  = 'ENERGY  '		/Dimension labels
	2CTYP2  = 'TIME    '
	1CRPX2  =                  1.0	/Index of reference pixel
	2CRPX2  =                  1.0
	1CRVL2  =                  2.5	/Axis values at reference pixel
	2CRVL2  =                  0.0
	1_1CD2  =                  0.1	/Pixel spacings along each axis
	2_2CD2  =                  4.0

In other words, each keyword begins with the dimension number, and ends with
the column number.  The "CD" keywords really represent the elements of a
coordinate transformation matrix--in this case one that only transforms the
scale.  This is something that comes out of the World Coordinate System, which
is something fairly new in FITS.  In addition, the HEASARC proposal includes
the ability to express what the axis units are, e.g.:

	1CUNI2  = 'keV    '		/Axis units
	2CUNI2  = 's      '

The HEASARC people were aware of my proposal, but were concerned that the
length of the strings would be too long.  Also, they preferred that a single
FITS keyword point to a single value, rather than an array of values.

The downside of the HEASARC approach is that it takes more space than mine.

You should be able to get more information about the HEASARC approach from
William Pence (pence@tetra.gsfc.nasa.gov).

Hope this is of help,

Bill Thompson

From bschlesinger@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov Fri Jan 28 20:22:42 1994
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	["1451" "" "28" "January" "1994" "17:14" "EDT" "BARRY M. SCHLESINGER" "bschlesinger@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov" "<28JAN199417141420@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov>" "34" "Re: Scientific Data Format Information FAQ" "^From:" nil nil "1" "1994012821:14:00" "Scientific Data Format Information FAQ" (number " " mark "     BARRY M. SCHLESIN Jan 28   34/1451  " thread-indent "\"Re: Scientific Data Format Information FAQ\"\n") "<thompson.759597724@serts.gsfc.nasa.gov>"]
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Summary: SFDU information in a week or so
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From: bschlesinger@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov (BARRY M. SCHLESINGER)
Subject: Re: Scientific Data Format Information FAQ
Date: 28 Jan 1994 17:14 EDT

In article <thompson.759597724@serts.gsfc.nasa.gov>, thompson@serts.gsfc.nasa.gov (William Thompson) writes...

>...the SFDU mechanism is a way of associating with a
>data file a label that serves as a pointer to a description of the file format.
>As such, a PDS/ODL file can qualify as an SFDU, but so could files in FITS,
>CDF, etc., or even in mission-specific file formats, so long as the format
>description is registered.
> 
>...
> 
There is also a control authority structure and procedure for 
registering descriptions.
> 
>I would like to see information on SFDUs included in the FAQ, but am not
>qualified to write it myself.  You might try contacting Don Sawyer at
> 
>	NSSDCA::SAWYER
>or
>	sawyer@nssdca.gsfc.nasa.gov
> 
>to see if anyone in his office would be interested in contributing something
>about SFDUs for the FAQ.  I myself would be really happy if some of the SFDU
>documentation was available online in WWW/HTML format.

Don Sawyer and the other major players are on their way (if the ice 
storm didn't mess up their travel) to a CCSDS sponsored meeting on 
SFDU, control authorities, and registration in Japan next week (31 
January - 4 February). Because of the usual pre-meeting rush, 
complicated by facility closings due to weather, they haven't had time 
to answer.   They should have something to say about plans for 
on-line SFDU documentation when they get back.
				Barry Schlesinger
				NOST FITS Support Office. 


